wcblack34 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 13 hours ago, Purplepride323 said: These are all questions that I’m sure Spielman and Brezinski have the answers to. I’ve been hearing that Brez is a salary cap genius and there’s no better way to prove it than to keep Cook, Ngakoue and Harris all on long-term deals. Like you said, we just traded two high picks for Ngakoue so I’m sure we plan on keeping him around for more than a year. Let’s keep in mind, by signing Harris, and Ngakoue to long term deals, it’ll actually free up cap space. Sort of like we did with Cousins’ contract earlier in the offseason. If we can free up Cook’s 10-12 mil salary I think we should keep him. I’ve said this before, RBs like Cook don’t come around often and are not easy to replace. Mattison is good but Cook is special imo. He's not going to create 12 million in cap space out of thin air. Especially when the salary cap is going to shrink. It's wishful thinking to think that any team can afford to give every single one of its stars market rate deals. Brezinski doesn't have to "prove" anything. He has to deal with reality. Reality is that we have too many young stars to be able to pay them all, and that's not a terrible problem to have. Cook isn't Adrian Peterson. I'm not even convinced he's Robert Smith at this point. He's very good. But in today's NFL, you can get by with lesser RB's and still be fine. Kubiak has made a career out of it. Recent history has shown that paying RB's at the top of the market provides a very poor return on investment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: Has he ever played a full season? The answer is no, and in many of the games he has played he's been less than healthy. His average depth of target was -1.5 yards. He had 7 drops on 63 targets last year. The other guys that you mentioned had 50-100%+ more targets. So he doesn't run routes, and has questionable hands. Seems like they schemed his most of his YAC via screens based on ADOT. He's incredibly explosive with the ball in his hands, but he's not a great receiver. The salary cap will go down next year. Of course players can be let go, but given the negotiating stalemate this year it seems like the Vikings have a price point and won't prioritize signing him for anything more than that. They already restructured Reiff. I don't know what to tell you if you think Cook is more valuable based on one sorta healthy year of pretty good production than some of the other guys that need deals. I really like Cook too, but it seems like you are grasping here. You initially said he's never healthy -- not he's never played a full season. Who's grasping here? Last year he played 16 total games (14 regular season and 2 playoff -- and he could have played the final week but Zimmer wanted to rest the starters). For a runningback who ranked 8th in total carries during the regular season, expecting more is asking for more than most RBs were asked to do. He's not Emmitt Smith, and it's well known that RBs tend to get dinged up and sometimes miss games during the regular season. If you had to slam into LBs 15-20 times per game you'd get dinged up too. Yes he struggled to stay healthy his first 2 seasons but last year he was fine. If they Vikings "schemed" his YAC and it was wildly successful -- GREAT JOB! I'm sure the coaching staff was very pleased with having Cook capitalize on the game-plan. Again -- being a good/great receiver out of the backfield means more than just the ability to catch the ball. You don't know what the Vikings final offer will be. Just because they've called off negotiations doesn't mean they won't budge. Next year will be a whole new negotiation. Some of the other guys that need deals? Well Cook is more valuable than Harris IMO. If Cook has another year like last year that's glaringly apparent. I know analytics guys probably don't think so, but I doubt Zimmer is an analytics guy. Other than Ngakoue, the other guys don't need attention yet, unless you're planning on breaking the bank for Elflein. Edited September 3, 2020 by babababa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 26 minutes ago, wcblack34 said: He's not going to create 12 million in cap space out of thin air. Especially when the salary cap is going to shrink. It's wishful thinking to think that any team can afford to give every single one of its stars market rate deals. Brezinski doesn't have to "prove" anything. He has to deal with reality. Reality is that we have too many young stars to be able to pay them all, and that's not a terrible problem to have. Cook isn't Adrian Peterson. I'm not even convinced he's Robert Smith at this point. He's very good. But in today's NFL, you can get by with lesser RB's and still be fine. Kubiak has made a career out of it. Recent history has shown that paying RB's at the top of the market provides a very poor return on investment. Dead money from Diggs and Rhodes -- 14 million will be off the books next year from those two alone. Then you let Harris walk. Prioritize re-signing Cook if he has a good season again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) What are we even arguing about here? About whether we would choose a 30 year-old safety over a age-26 RB? Is that it or am I missing something? It seems we all agree that Cook is a good RB. Some think that he is more important to the team than some of the other players. That's fine. We don't need to argue about it. I personally wouldn't choose a RB over a DE of similar age and skill level if I was leading the team. I sincerely hope that doesn't offend anyone. O'Neill is another player that, to me, is a no-brainer to pay before you think about the RB. Get him extended before giving up any flexibility against the cap. It is a tougher call between a RB and a S that is fours year older. I would only count on either of them for about two years. I wouldn't necessarily prioritize one over the other but maybe go with the one that has the most reasonable salary expectations and look for a replacement for the other. Yeah, it would be great if the team could pay all of their players what they want. But if that is the case, what are we even talking about? Edited September 3, 2020 by Cearbhall 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 1 minute ago, babababa said: You initially said he's never healthy -- not he's never played a full season. Who's grasping here? Last year he played 16 total games (14 regular season and 2 playoff -- and he could have played the final week but Zimmer wanted to rest the starters). For a runningback who ranked 8th in total carries during the regular season, expecting more is asking for more than most RBs were asked to do. He's not Emmitt Smith, and t's well known that RBs get dinged up and miss games during the regular season. If you had to slam into LBs 15-20 times per game you'd get dinged up too. Yes he struggled to stay healthy his first 2 seasons but last year he was fine. If they Vikings "schemed" his YAC and it was wildly successful -- GREAT JOB! I'm sure the coaching staff was very pleased with having Cook capitalize on the game-plan. Again -- being a good/great receiver out of the backfield means more than just the ability to catch the ball. You don't know what the Vikings final offer will be. Just because they've called off negotiations doesn't mean they won't budge. Next year will be a whole new negotiation. Some of the other guys that need deals? Well Cook is more valuable than Harris IMO. If Cook has another year like last year that's glaringly apparent. I know analytics guys probably don't think so, but I doubt Zimmer is an analytics guy. Other than Ngakoue, the other guys don't need attention yet, unless you're planning on breaking the bank for Elflein. That's some... creative remembering of last year. His shoulder was shot down the stretch, and it impacted his production. He was not healthy last year. You're right, being a great receiver out of the backfield is more than just catching the ball (which he's not good at). It's also route running (which he's not good at), and scheme/formation versatility (which he doesn't provide). Every time that I can remember a RB splitting wide, it was Abdullah. You're right - next year will be a whole new negotiation. And the offer isn't going to go up with a shrinking cap and the Cousins extension kicking in. O'Neill needs a new deal. Hunter is likely going to want to get paid after they pay Ngokue, and they are already against the cap as it is. I'm not going to keep arguing about this though. You can love Dalvin Cook as much as you want. I wish they could keep him on a long term deal that makes both sides happy. I just don't think it's realistic, and he just doesn't have the positional value to prioritize paying him what he is likely to want. I'll be very sad to see him go if that's what it comes to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: That's some... creative remembering of last year. His shoulder was shot down the stretch, and it impacted his production. He was not healthy last year. You're right, being a great receiver out of the backfield is more than just catching the ball (which he's not good at). It's also route running (which he's not good at), and scheme/formation versatility (which he doesn't provide). Every time that I can remember a RB splitting wide, it was Abdullah. You're right - next year will be a whole new negotiation. And the offer isn't going to go up with a shrinking cap and the Cousins extension kicking in. O'Neill needs a new deal. Hunter is likely going to want to get paid after they pay Ngokue, and they are already against the cap as it is. I'm not going to keep arguing about this though. You can love Dalvin Cook as much as you want. I wish they could keep him on a long term deal that makes both sides happy. I just don't think it's realistic, and he just doesn't have the positional value to prioritize paying him what he is likely to want. I'll be very sad to see him go if that's what it comes to. Saying a guy's shoulder was shot down the stretch when he rested a week and came back full-load for the playoffs is a bit much. Did he have a good game against the 49ers? No...but that isn't the point -- and aside from the Diggs touchdown that game was awful for everyone. "He was not healthy last year" -- just like saying "he's never healthy" is the only creative re-imagining happening at the moment. How do you know he's not good at route running? How do you figure he's not versatile when he hasn't been asked to line up at WR? Is lining up a RB at WR so important to any scheme? I've seen it used occasionally, but it's not the norm. This is the way I see him: I say he is versatile in that he's a slashing running back who can also punish defenders who can get in his way. He's aggressive, noses for extra yardage consistently, shows great burst through the line, great balance and cuts, slips tackles regularly, has good vision, is excellent in YAC, and will seek contact/run through a tackler if he has to. He stuggled to stay healthy his 1st 2 seasons, but rebounded last year. O'Neill and Hunter's contracts aren't up next year. It's good that you're thinking down the road, but you're making financial decisions based on speculating over signing what's due next year. Reiff will be off the books before you need to re-up O'Neill and Hunter might need re-negotiation -- not numbers far off from what he's currently under contract for right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplepride323 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 We got our best player for another 5 years! 5 year deal worth $63 million ($12.5 annual average). Great day for the Vikings! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 More than I would have paid a running back, but I’ll wait until we actually see the details of the deal. Once they made Cook a captain it was obvious that an extension was coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENINCH Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 I know we need to pay Hunter but hes under contract so his contract can be negotiated/ extended after his current contract ends. Harris, Rudolph, and Reiff will be gone. That'll give us more money to play with. I'll be surprised if they actually lower the cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcblack34 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Gonna have to see the details, but at first blush, I don’t like it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENINCH Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, wcblack34 said: Gonna have to see the details, but at first blush, I don’t like it. 15 million signing bonus only 28 million guaranteed sounds good to me. I hope we can keep resign Yannick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 YESSS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdallr Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 20 minutes ago, TENINCH said: 15 million signing bonus only 28 million guaranteed sounds good to me. I hope we can keep resign Yannick. I'm guessing the majority or all of the "guaranteed" money is in the first 2-3 years so the team has an easy out if he wears down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplepride323 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, TENINCH said: I know we need to pay Hunter but hes under contract so his contract can be negotiated/ extended after his current contract ends. Harris, Rudolph, and Reiff will be gone. That'll give us more money to play with. I'll be surprised if they actually lower the cap. Or Barr, Rudolph & Reiff. I’d much rather keep Harris than an underperforming Anthony Barr. I really hope Spielman and Brez now find a way to keep Ngakoue and Harris long-term. Rudolph and Barr are both on the decline and both have big contracts. So it’s best for the team to use that money for younger or better guys. Also I don’t know if we should bring Pierce back. If Stephen has a great year at Nose Tackle (which he is much better at than 3Tech) then I don’t see why we would need a $10 million/year NT. Edited September 12, 2020 by Purplepride323 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 52 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said: We got our best player for another 5 years! 5 year deal worth $63 million ($12.5 annual average). Great day for the Vikings! If Cook is their best player the Vikings are in serious trouble. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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