Is Aaron Rodgers still good as a pre-snap QB?

[AlexGreen#20]

15 minutes ago, deathstar said:

Again you do this a lot. Aside from throwing out things that show our offense is not terrible, you dance around comments. I asked you before - if our offense is so terrible how do we have so many open looks that Rodgers is missing? If our offense is so terrible why are we so successful in the red zone? If we are calling our offense like we have Mariota at QB then show me that, personnel groupings don’t tell me what we are trying to accomplish. 

In the end, to me, it looks like you decided from the first press conference that this was going to be a bad offense, because of LaFleur’s comments on committing to the run. Then you hated the hiring of Hackett. Since then I haven’t seen one comment from you actually looking at our offensive playbook and evaluating it. I would love to see your thoughts on that. 

We're 26th in points per drive. We have an offense that's failing to create a strong number of good opportunities AND a QB who is failing to capitalize on those opportunities available. Playing against a bunch of strong defenses so far is also highlighting our limitations. Bad output, whether it be offensive or defensive is almost always a culmination of many factors. 

We're successful in the redzone for a few reasons, predominantly among them that rezone execution, especially in the run game, is more talent based than scheme based. We also run an offense that is more efficient in the redzone. We run a short yardage offense. Extra backs and tight ends are more productive in the redzone than between the 20s. We've also seen Rodgers make two contested throws to Graham and Allison for TDs that he hasn't been making between the 20s. It's also a small sample size. We will likely regress to some extent.

What can I show you to establish how a Mariota offense is called before I can even begin to make the comparison to Rodgers?

[Leader]

5 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

We're successful in the redzone for a few reasons, predominantly among them that rezone execution, especially in the run game, is more talent based than scheme based. We also run an offense that is more efficient in the redzone. We run a short yardage offense. Extra backs and tight ends are more productive in the redzone than between the 20s. We've also seen Rodgers make two contested throws to Graham and Allison for TDs that he hasn't been making between the 20s. It's also a small sample size. We will likely regress to some extent.

Interesting points.

[MrBobGray]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I assume triple in breakers is always to free up the outside man, so top of the screen. In this case Vitale. We love settling for three yards.

I really like the arrow route by MVS here. That's the real winner on this play. 

That's the thing though; in a vacuum I agree with you and think Rodgers probably ran the play as designed. Read MVS/Jones, fall back to Vitale if there's nothing else. But it's not in a vacuum, you've got a hilarious mismatch on your slot and your #1 knows it. Just look at the difference between the slants Mercedes and Adams run: Mercedes kinda loafs it like there's no chance the ball is coming to him, but Adams cuts it off sharp and looks for the ball like he expects it. Could just be reading into it since I can't actually read his mind, he may just really be selling the route to draw defenders. But he sure looks like he expects the ball and why wouldn't he? Double slant is an effective combo in this situation on top of setting up Vitale. 

I can't slam Rodgers for not reading Chubb would be in the throwing lane to MVS, I just think this was a missed opportunity. For all they've talked about Adams needing more opportunities, they got a golden one out of the gate and Rodgers didn't take it. This isn't a huge deal, it's a small play and Rodgers made something of it. I still think it's emblematic of a bigger problem though, which is that the quick pass game has been missing for years, and even on all short stuff plays Rodgers is contentt tohold it and hope.

[Leader]

Just now, MrBobGray said:

Mercedes kinda loafs it like there's no chance the ball is coming to him, but Adams cuts it off sharp and looks for the ball like he expects it.

Mercedes runs like a moose....that has a touch of arthritis setting in to its knees. Adams runs like a deer.....thats been clipped by a car in its life and had its top speed downgraded

[vegas492]

13 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

So what you're saying is, you don't want anybody to criticize Rodgers under any circumstances?

Message received. 

Here's 2 plays later:

Throwing an absolute scrub tier ball on third down

That's as clean a pocket as you get, especially on third down.

Receiver coming open in the center of the field, right in front of his face.

Could have thrown it a tick earlier.

Should have turned his left should and stepped towards the throw.  Not whip this 3/4 arm crap.

When I looked at his Super Bowl win, this was a gimme kind of play.  Mechanics would be perfect, ball placement would be perfect and it's a big game.

This incompletion was due, I feel, to poor mechanics.  

Thankfully, he had a few other plays where his mechanics were excellent.

Had an up and down game, but I thought I saw some improvement from him.

As far as the run?  I simply chalk it up to running the play that was called.  That motion action could have been part of a larger package of plays that worked off of that initial look.  We really don't know.

[vegas492]

13 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

oUr ReCeIeVeRs DoN't GeT AnY YAC

You find a negative in that play.  

I'll point out a positive.

Davante, who we know is his #1 read, like most of the time, is wide open.  And instead, Rodgers goes to MVS.  MVS who has a safety closer to him and a corner closer to him.

To me, this was a poor read, ball should have gone to 'Vante.

But...it's not a bad thing to get a few to MVS and try to build up that confidence and chemistry.

And...thank you for posting these things, they are very interesting to watch.

[PACKRULE]

1 hour ago, Fl0nkerton said:

wait so we want our 36 year old qb to stand and deliver for a shot in the ribs for what now?

To...see Tim Boyle for a month? 

"If I were 36 and an all world QB I would simply take every hit imaginable because I don't want to look like a *****!"

He still gets hit and or pushed to the ground on his off script stuff too. The greater point would be that he get the ball off on spot. Yes he will have to take a hit now and again standing tall in the pocket but with the rules the way they are he may get up after.

[vegas492]

11 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Totally forgot about this beauty on 2nd and 15

3/4 sidearm fling again.  

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Seems to me we are taking way too much time looking backward, and not looking forward.

There are some encouraging signs that the offense is getting better, such as yards per play improving each week, more points each week, etc.

We knew going into the season the first 5 weeks would be tough, with tough defenses in the first three weeks.

Give it time.   It may or may not get better, but the sample size with a new offense is too small at this point.

[Fl0nkerton]

11 minutes ago, PACKRULE said:

He still gets hit and or pushed to the ground on his off script stuff too. The greater point would be that he get the ball off on spot. Yes he will have to take a hit now and again standing tall in the pocket but with the rules the way they are he may get up after.

Well in that case...

[MrBobGray]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

That's as clean a pocket as you get, especially on third down.

Receiver coming open in the center of the field, right in front of his face.

Could have thrown it a tick earlier.

Should have turned his left should and stepped towards the throw.  Not whip this 3/4 arm crap.

When I looked at his Super Bowl win, this was a gimme kind of play.  Mechanics would be perfect, ball placement would be perfect and it's a big game.

This incompletion was due, I feel, to poor mechanics.  

Thankfully, he had a few other plays where his mechanics were excellent.

Had an up and down game, but I thought I saw some improvement from him.

As far as the run?  I simply chalk it up to running the play that was called.  That motion action could have been part of a larger package of plays that worked off of that initial look.  We really don't know.

See, I thought a lot of these were on Rodgers reacting rather than anticipating.  He sees the throw late but tries to force it.  But the more of these I watch, the less sure I am.  He's not reacting late, he reads right, comes back left, sees GMo before his break will be open, but doesn't reset his feet or get his body in line, he just whips it.  This is 100% an intentional side arm, and it cost them the first down.  This is sort of my great fear with Rodgers, because we saw the same thing with Favre and most other "I can get the ball there no matter what" types.  Rodgers has full confidence in his insane arm talent, but he's growing steadily more inconsistent with it.  He's way too talented a QB to miss as many gimme balls as he does, and there's always several in every game. 

[vegas492]

20 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

See, I thought a lot of these were on Rodgers reacting rather than anticipating.  He sees the throw late but tries to force it.  But the more of these I watch, the less sure I am.  He's not reacting late, he reads right, comes back left, sees GMo before his break will be open, but doesn't reset his feet or get his body in line, he just whips it.  This is 100% an intentional side arm, and it cost them the first down.  This is sort of my great fear with Rodgers, because we saw the same thing with Favre and most other "I can get the ball there no matter what" types.  Rodgers has full confidence in his insane arm talent, but he's growing steadily more inconsistent with it.  He's way too talented a QB to miss as many gimme balls as he does, and there's always several in every game. 

I think...and this is just an opinion....but there are a few things going on with him, mechanically.

First?  He's been injured enough lately.  His o-line has been deteriorating over the past few years and coordinators have figured out how to rush him and keep him in the pocket.

That being said?  I don't think he fully trusts his line.  So those feet are "happy".  Poor foot placement leads to poor mechanics.

And?  He line is better than it has been in quite some time.  I see glimpses of great mechanics, and I'll be those grow as he trusts that line more and more.

The other part?  He's faced some killer defenses.  Yah, those feet are skittish.  Guessing his eyes watch the o-line on his drop sometimes, too.  It's only natural.  I'm thinking a lot of this clears up when he plays teams that aren't stacked on the DL and when he trusts that line more.  And I think both will happen.

[MrBobGray]

Man, I gotta give @AlexGreen#20 credit for sticking with this thread.  Not sure I would have.  

Honestly, I'm surprised so many people are so vehemently in disagreement.  I love Rodgers as much as the next guy, but surely even casual fans can see that Rodgers doesn't look like the player he used to be.  I mean, if you want a super easy example, go watch Mahomes play and then watch Rodgers.  People will talk about the offense and the skill position players, etc, but this is the second offense with the same problems and Mahomes is working with less than Rodgers right now.  People want to talk about Aaron being one of if not the greatest QB to ever play, but then blame the offensive struggles on everything but him.  If you have a player who's supposed to be the very best to ever have done it, you shouldn't need an elite playcaller, OL, RB group and receiving corps for him to play like it.  Aaron is currently 13th in passer rating, and by the very best metric the offense is ranked 14th.   Again, with a guy many Packers fans to be better than literally anyone who's ever played QB.  How can you possibly square those things?

 

[Packerraymond]

13 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Totally forgot about this beauty on 2nd and 15

Guys look, Rodgers missed a throw. He sucks now.

Kenny Clark sucked Sunday, let's make that thread too, I'll start it off with the gif of him whiffing Lindsay on 4th and goal and giving up a TD.

Kevin King, that play to Sutton, WTF was that? Let's make the Kevin King sucks thread.

Bahk jumped on a hard count, sucks.

Packers, 3-0, suck.

[MrBobGray]

8 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I think...and this is just an opinion....but there are a few things going on with him, mechanically.

First?  He's been injured enough lately.  His o-line has been deteriorating over the past few years and coordinators have figured out how to rush him and keep him in the pocket.

That being said?  I don't think he fully trusts his line.  So those feet are "happy".  Poor foot placement leads to poor mechanics.

And?  He line is better than it has been in quite some time.  I see glimpses of great mechanics, and I'll be those grow as he trusts that line more and more.

The other part?  He's faced some killer defenses.  Yah, those feet are skittish.  Guessing his eyes watch the o-line on his drop sometimes, too.  It's only natural.  I'm thinking a lot of this clears up when he plays teams that aren't stacked on the DL and when he trusts that line more.  And I think both will happen.

I mean if Aaron is getting happy feet with this line then oof.  Yeah, the guards weren't good last year but the Packers still had one of the best pass blocking lines in football, and have for years.  Early in his career the line was terrible and Rodgers was getting hit all the time, and he made it work.  Yes, he's older now and probably doesn't want to take those hits, but that's the job.  You cannot play QB if you're scared of getting hit, especially not in a system that frequently only has two receivers out in routes.