Shurmur Fired, officially stuck with Dopey Dave thread

[Giants4eva]

10 minutes ago, Shockey1979 said:

Hah! Winning this game and screwing themselves out of the #2 pick is exactly the Giants thing to do. One last smack in the face to the fans this season

U do realize that win or lose this game we will still own the #2 pick due to strength of schedule ?

[Shockwave]

4 minutes ago, Giants4eva said:

U do realize that win or lose this game we will still own the #2 pick due to strength of schedule ?

Errm if we go 2-1 to finish out the season and Washington goes 0-3 ( which is totally feasible since they have Eagles, Boys, and GMEN) then they finish 3-13 and we finish 4-12. SOS would only come into play in the event of them both going 3-13. If the Giants win this game vs Miami that means they'd have to lose to the Skins to get the #2 pick. The Skins know how to properly tank so that's not happening. So in theory winning this game against the Phins would all but knock them out of the #2 pick (assuming nothing crazy happens like the Skins upsetting the Boys or Eagles)

[Giants4eva]

26 minutes ago, Shockey1979 said:

Errm if we go 2-1 to finish out the season and Washington goes 0-3 ( which is totally feasible since they have Eagles, Boys, and GMEN) then they finish 3-13 and we finish 4-12. SOS would only come into play in the event of them both going 3-13. If the Giants win this game vs Miami that means they'd have to lose to the Skins to get the #2 pick. The Skins know how to properly tank so that's not happening. So in theory winning this game against the Phins would all but knock them out of the #2 pick (assuming nothing crazy happens like the Skins upsetting the Boys or Eagles)

I don't know I see us going tops 1-2.. Loss to the dolphins and the eagles.

[GMENNATION]

I didn't think it would happen but I'm now convinced Shurmur is gone.. Gettleman, I highly doubt. I understand the frustration with the Leonard Williams trade but some of the other things claimed is revisionist history. JPP was not a big impact when he left the team. Good for him for turning it around but none of us were slamming it at the time and there was nothing to suggest he would be able to turn it around. Gettleman has also drafted well. We can debate RB at #2 all day long, I get that. But it looks like he hit on 2/3 of the 1st round picks this past year, Ximines is TBD, Love Connolly and Slayton all look like good picks, some of whom may turn out to be great picks. Lorenzo Carter seems good enough to at least be a rotation guy and while Hernandez hasn't taken the next step, he's far from a bust at this point.

Not saying Gettleman has been great but the dude has done enough to get a third year. 

[Giants4eva]

34 minutes ago, GMENNATION said:

I didn't think it would happen but I'm now convinced Shurmur is gone.. Gettleman, I highly doubt. I understand the frustration with the Leonard Williams trade but some of the other things claimed is revisionist history. JPP was not a big impact when he left the team. Good for him for turning it around but none of us were slamming it at the time and there was nothing to suggest he would be able to turn it around. Gettleman has also drafted well. We can debate RB at #2 all day long, I get that. But it looks like he hit on 2/3 of the 1st round picks this past year, Ximines is TBD, Love Connolly and Slayton all look like good picks, some of whom may turn out to be great picks. Lorenzo Carter seems good enough to at least be a rotation guy and while Hernandez hasn't taken the next step, he's far from a bust at this point.

Not saying Gettleman has been great but the dude has done enough to get a third year. 

As much as ive been fired up about the rest of the state of the team, Gettleman i dont feel will be fired either. I think he warrants 1 more year. I cannot argue with his drafts. Barkley, Hernandez, Jones, Love, Connelly, Ximenes, Carter, Slayton are all pieces that are doing well for the most part. I just feel this coaching staff isnt doing enough at all to help these guys grow more and are definitly not using them to their strengths (insert Deandre Baker here). People wanna condemn the Solder contract but we all need to remember, the going rate for a left tackle and for what was available in that free agency period we all knew it was gonna cost big bucks to get someone in there. Solder has deff not lived up to his contract or billing but for what was available at the time and trying to stomach 1 more year of Ereck Flowers would've been an abomination. Leonard Williams is debatable as well, if u ask me we are doing better at stuffing the run since he came in. And dare i say once again, the coaching staff isnt putting him and multiple others into a place of where they can be successful. I do agree Gettleman deserves 1 more year but its up to Tisch and Mara as to where they wanna go with this thing after the seasons up. 

[Acgott]

How the hell do you think Gettleman has done a decent job? His job is to get the players and the coach. Our OL is in shambles, we have no pass rushers, no secondary. No LBs

Solder has been terrible. Way too early to say anything about Connelly, Love or Ximenes. He gives away 3rd round picks like candy.

A lot of blame is of course on the coaching staff, but I don’t think I’m comfortable with a single position on the team except for RB...

[Acgott]

Oh and of course it’s Gettleman’s job to pick the HC... He’s our head football guy. Shumur’s failings is on Gettleman 

[ny92mike]

4 hours ago, Acgott said:

How the hell do you think Gettleman has done a decent job? His job is to get the players and the coach. Our OL is in shambles, we have no pass rushers, no secondary. No LBs

Solder has been terrible. Way too early to say anything about Connelly, Love or Ximenes. He gives away 3rd round picks like candy.

A lot of blame is of course on the coaching staff, but I don’t think I’m comfortable with a single position on the team except for RB...

Holy hell... Acgott and I agree on something.

Poor coaching?...Sure, he's made some questionable calls and most would probably say enough of them to get him fired.  I do think that this GM has never once given him the opportunity to succeed.  

Nothing and I mean nothing this GM has done or told his coach to do has been right.  Sure he does a decent job of drafting, but being the GM is much more than that.  He's over his head, always has been.  The way he conducts business, I think pulling someone off the street would have done a more complete job than this moron.  I've been a long time Giants fan...the ups and downs for many years and I have never seen a person so less qualified for this position than Dave Gettleman.  He needs to be locked in the scouting room and throw away the key.

Sickened by the damage he's done to this once proud franchise, if he doesn't go I'm going.

[GMENNATION]

16 hours ago, Acgott said:

Oh and of course it’s Gettleman’s job to pick the HC... He’s our head football guy. Shumur’s failings is on Gettleman 

I agree with you on the head coach and it needs to be addressed. Shurmur just seems lost out there from a game management standpoint and they're having trouble developing players at many positions. 

As far as roster management / cap management, I completely disagree.

1. He was put in a very tough cap situation. A lot of high-earning guys who weren't producing and - let's face it - not winning. So he cut bait on a lot of guys.

2. Of the people he let go, tell me who he has gotten rid of that you are missing.. OBJ? Okay, but we never won with him and he isn't exactly lighting the world on fire elsewhere. JPP? It's easy to say that now but none of us wanted to pay him. He had 1, 7 and 8.5 sacks from 2015-2017. We were all down on Richburg and Pugh. He hasn't really misjudged guys he let go.

3. Sure, you can say he hasn't replaced all those guys either, which is where I'm saying he hasn't done a great job either. But chances were it was going to get worse before it got better. They had to get younger and had to cut salaries. He's not going to hit on everyone he goes after. Solder has not worked out. Remmers was a stop-gap guy and an improvement over what was there before. Same goes for Zeitler. The Golden Tate move is questionable to me, and the injuries haven't helped. Markus Golden has obviously been a pleasant surprise. It's a mixed bag for sure.

4. As for giving up draft picks, he's also acquiring draft picks. In his two drafts, he has had 6 picks and 10 picks respectively. In 2018, he also used a 2019 3rd round pick on Sam Beal. In 2018, 4 picks were in the first three rounds. In 2019, 4 picks again were in the first three round. The jury is still out on the majority of these guys so we can debate them all day long but at least early signs are positive on many of them.

At the end of the day, winning is all that matters and they have not done that at all yet. But Shurmur is far more obviously in over his head than Gettleman is. 

[Kodaraw]

7 minutes ago, GMENNATION said:

I agree with you on the head coach and it needs to be addressed. Shurmur just seems lost out there from a game management standpoint and they're having trouble developing players at many positions. 

As far as roster management / cap management, I completely disagree.

1. He was put in a very tough cap situation. A lot of high-earning guys who weren't producing and - let's face it - not winning. So he cut bait on a lot of guys.

2. Of the people he let go, tell me who he has gotten rid of that you are missing.. OBJ? Okay, but we never won with him and he isn't exactly lighting the world on fire elsewhere. JPP? It's easy to say that now but none of us wanted to pay him. He had 1, 7 and 8.5 sacks from 2015-2017. We were all down on Richburg and Pugh. He hasn't really misjudged guys he let go.

3. Sure, you can say he hasn't replaced all those guys either, which is where I'm saying he hasn't done a great job either. But chances were it was going to get worse before it got better. They had to get younger and had to cut salaries. He's not going to hit on everyone he goes after. Solder has not worked out. Remmers was a stop-gap guy and an improvement over what was there before. Same goes for Zeitler. The Golden Tate move is questionable to me, and the injuries haven't helped. Markus Golden has obviously been a pleasant surprise. It's a mixed bag for sure.

4. As for giving up draft picks, he's also acquiring draft picks. In his two drafts, he has had 6 picks and 10 picks respectively. In 2018, he also used a 2019 3rd round pick on Sam Beal. In 2018, 4 picks were in the first three rounds. In 2019, 4 picks again were in the first three round. The jury is still out on the majority of these guys so we can debate them all day long but at least early signs are positive on many of them.

At the end of the day, winning is all that matters and they have not done that at all yet. But Shurmur is far more obviously in over his head than Gettleman is. 

1) He created the cap hell.  Reese was pretty good at managing the cap.  We have so much dead money from him this year it’s insane. Jonathan Stewart? Patrick Omameh? Paying Elite LT money for an average LT? Signing OBJ to Trade him... etc etc 

2) I miss Vernon and OBJ and Richburg. 

3) Get younger by signing aging veterans (see above) 

4) The larger point about trading for Williams is his misuse of draft capital. He drafted BJ hill with a third. He drafted RJ McIntosh with a fifth. He had Dalvin on the roster. He drafts Lawrence with a first. Then he trades a 3rd and 4/5 for another DT who wants to be paid like an elite defender?  Don’t forget, he traded away Snacks for a fifth. Snacks > Williams.  

[Acgott]

@GMENNATION Im sorry, but what in your post says Gettleman has done a decent job? You just list a bunch of moves where’s he’s cutting bait, but he hasn’t replenish the roster. What has he done that says, I believe in him for year 3.

1. That’s fine, but he hasn’t replenish the roster either. 2 drafts and we still have the same issues.

2.OBJ was a terrible decision, but I’m not going to spend more time arguing. Getting 

3. Nate Solder is such a bad decision. He’s going to cost us $13M if we cut him and $19M if we keep him. The other moves are minor things, this is a HUGE blemish.

4. You just list draft picks, but none of his players I feel good about except for a #2 pick... How are early signs positive?

[GMENNATION]

29 minutes ago, Kodaraw said:

1) He created the cap hell.  Reese was pretty good at managing the cap.  We have so much dead money from him this year it’s insane. Jonathan Stewart? Patrick Omameh? Paying Elite LT money for an average LT? Signing OBJ to Trade him... etc etc 

2) I miss Vernon and OBJ and Richburg. 

3) Get younger by signing aging veterans (see above) 

4) The larger point about trading for Williams is his misuse of draft capital. He drafted BJ hill with a third. He drafted RJ McIntosh with a fifth. He had Dalvin on the roster. He drafts Lawrence with a first. Then he trades a 3rd and 4/5 for another DT who wants to be paid like an elite defender?  Don’t forget, he traded away Snacks for a fifth. Snacks > Williams.  

1. How did he create the cap hell? He did not sign JPP, OV, Ellison, Jackrabbit or Snacks. Yes, he created short-term cap hell by getting rid of many of them but now their salaries are off the books going into 2020. 

2. Signing OBJ to trade him was definitely a bad move, agreed there and understand what it did to the cap this year. What do you miss about Vernon? He never surpassed 8.5 sacks with the giants. Markus Golden will beat that this year. That was a bad signing by Reese. 

3. He made two long-term 'aging veteran' signings: Solder and Tate. I do have problems with both of them.

4. Fair enough on investing too much on DTs. Neither Snacks nor Williams deserve to be paid top dollar and I'm not saying that as a knock to Snacks, it's just about the position. My point was more in response to "giving away 3rd round draft picks like candy".

[GMENNATION]

44 minutes ago, Acgott said:

@GMENNATION Im sorry, but what in your post says Gettleman has done a decent job? You just list a bunch of moves where’s he’s cutting bait, but he hasn’t replenish the roster. What has he done that says, I believe in him for year 3.

1. That’s fine, but he hasn’t replenish the roster either. 2 drafts and we still have the same issues.

2.OBJ was a terrible decision, but I’m not going to spend more time arguing. Getting 

3. Nate Solder is such a bad decision. He’s going to cost us $13M if we cut him and $19M if we keep him. The other moves are minor things, this is a HUGE blemish.

4. You just list draft picks, but none of his players I feel good about except for a #2 pick... How are early signs positive?

1. Agreed.. point is 2 years is not enough time. Just like you're saying I can't claim that draft picks are hits yet, you can't claim they are busts. 

2. Agreed, mismanaged. 

3. I get it, what would you have rather him done? Keep doubling down on Nate Solder?

4. Early signs are positive because Saquon is a top 5 back, Jones looks like he can become a good QB, Dexter Lawrence has looked good, Darius Slayton has looked great, Ryan Connolly looked like he belonged albeit in a very small sample size until he got hurt. Those are all guys I specifically feel good about. Additionally, Julian Love, Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter and DeAndre Baker have shown at least some hope. Not that I feel good about them but that they are definitely not busts yet. You do not feel good about Jones and Slayton?

[minutemancl]

Well this may explain Solder's poor play this season- his son just had a tumor removed and is going through a THIRD round of chemotherapy. Hard to focus on your job, whatever that job is, when you are going through that. He gets a pass from me.

[NYGiantsman10]

5 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Well this may explain Solder's poor play this season- his son just had a tumor removed and is going through a THIRD round of chemotherapy. Hard to focus on your job, whatever that job is, when you are going through that. He gets a pass from me.

I was wondering how a guy could go from an average starter to an Ereck Flowers in a year. 

Hope the little guy can beat it for good