Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[acowboys62]

How exactly does one measure freedom anyways?  What I consider freedom for me is not going to be the same for the next person.  Just because it is written down on some piece of paper and filed away to never be looked at again does not seem relevant to anything really.  

[winitall]

8 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

It’s an example of the attitude of South Korea, not the explanation.  Tracking measures and widespread mask use are what I cited as the biggest reasons.  Prove that wrong.

The US has contact tracing, we just suck at it. Widespread mask usage could have happened but it wasn’t handled well. There’s nothing innately different about the entire rest of the world or South Korea, they’re just doing better. 

[animaltested]

8 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

My dude, ask @ramssuperbowl99.  He’s got all the info on why America was not able to enact contract tracing.  He posted it in here somewhere.  If one country can contact trace and one cannot, one government has more ability to handle covid than the other.

Also, tell me what you think would happen to any business in America that posted a “No Chinese” sign on its front window.

I am not insulting South Korea.  I never did.  If anything I praised their handling of covid.  Not the blatant racism of some businesses who restricted people based on their nationality, but I certainly praised South Korea for the measures they were able to take that we in America were not.

Quote

the freedom Americans have versus the freedom South Koreans don't have played its part. 

The issue is you stating Americans have freedoms South Koreans dont. And that played a role in the COVID prevention. I fail to understand how embracing contact tracing during a pandemic means not having freedom.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

21 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

I hope nowhere. I have a longer reply I will post later when I am not on my phonee. I would ask back to you, show me a state law or government enforced regulation on no shirt, no shoes, no service.  I believe those policies are enforced by the businesses and not the state/government levels. 
 

who enforces that’s at schools, fire departments, police departments, any government building? 
 

So while I get your point, it’s already mandated by the government to some degree.

21 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

Note that I am all for masks if it gets us out of this crap sooner, just giving a counter to the fact that the whole freedom argument is silly. I think a pandmic should override all of this nonsense and every state should be doing things the same otherwise we are in this never ending circle of lock downs and phases. 

 

I hear ya, I just think making it a universal mandate makes it an easier thing for local business to enforce who want to, especially in “red” areas where that may be problematic with their patrons.

”Sorry guys, it’s out of my hands” is a lot easier than being politically devisive.

[MacReady]

Just now, animaltested said:

The issue is you stating Americans have freedoms South Koreans dont. And that played a role in the COVID prevention. I fail to understand how embracing contact tracing during a pandemic means not having freedom.

I will grant I worded that terribly.  I should have said something more like, "Abilities South Korea's government has that America's government does not." 

Just now, winitall said:

The US has contact tracing, we just suck at it. Widespread mask usage could have happened but it wasn’t handled well. There’s nothing innately different about the entire rest of the world or South Korea, they’re just doing better. 

The reason America's contact tracing sucks is because of what information contact tracers are limited in providing based on perceived privacy rights issues.

And like I said at the very beginning of the post, South Korea is doing so well because mask wearing was considered socially acceptable/polite even before COVID-19. 

 

[animaltested]

4 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Quit dodging the point.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/nondiscrimination-basis-race-color-national-origin-sex-religion-or-age-law-enforcement-programs

https://www.insureon.com/blog/how-the-right-to-refuse-service-can-impact-your-business

You saying there's racism and descrimination in America is like you saying water is wet. 

I AM NOT SAYING THERE ISN'T RACISM AND DISCRIMINATION IN AMERICA.

In South Korea, those restaurants got away with discriminating based on nationality/race.  You cannot do that in America. 

Let me say this again so you understand the point:

I am not saying there isn't racism and discrimination in America.  I am saying it is illegal in America, and if a restaurant put up a sign saying NO CHINESE, they would be sued. 

I am also going to highlight the most important part so you can't keep dodging what my point was all along.

Gonna put it in big ****ing letters, too. 

South Korea has been able to contact trace.  South Korea has been able to track and monitor cases and provide that information to the public.  America has not been able to do that. 

But what does this have to do "with the freedom Americans have versus the freedom South Koreans don't have played its part". And how does this relate to COVID precautions?

[MacReady]

Just now, animaltested said:

But what does this have to do "with the freedom Americans have versus the freedom South Koreans don't have played its part". And how does this relate to COVID precautions?

I just answered that.  You're right, it was worded terribly, but my point stands.  The South Korean government was able to do a lot more than the American government was due to perceived freedom infringement of the American people. 

[Xenos]

8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

who enforces that’s at schools, fire departments, police departments, any government building? 
 

So while I get your point, it’s already mandated by the government to some degree.

I hear ya, I just think making it a universal mandate makes it an easier thing for local business to enforce who want to, especially in “red” areas where that may be problematic with their patrons.

”Sorry guys, it’s out of my hands” is a lot easier than being politically devisive.

Plus it’s easier to scapegoat the government lol.

[acowboys62]

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

who enforces that’s at schools, fire departments, police departments, any government building? 
 

I am with you, in a way it is a backdoor way for the government to do it without doing it.  It is the perception that I do think matter unfortunately.  Whether right or wrong, most of my thoughts/assumptions are based on people not being too bright and people just freak out when the government tells them to do anything, even if for their own benefit. But if an infomercial says it, damn, its good as gold. 

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

So while I get your point, it’s already mandated by the government to some degree.

Yea it is, and a more clever way IMO. 

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I hear ya, I just think making it a universal mandate makes it an easier thing for local business to enforce who want to, especially in “red” areas where that may be problematic with their patrons.

”Sorry guys, it’s out of my hands” is a lot easier than being politically devisive.

I agree completely, I think a lot of things have been handled wrong and I get the rush to just get info to the public, but there could have been better thought out messages from the start that could have helped tremendously.  Would never have 100% compliance in the US, but would be better than where we are today that is for sure.  I said when this thing first hit, and this is not anything anyone without common sense thought or said themselves, this thing is just going to bounce around the country until/if we get a vaccine because of the way we operate.  What was once in the Northeast has now moved and once it moves out of the South/West it will hit another region and rinse and repeat until we have a vaccine or are all infected.  

[animaltested]

3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I just answered that.  You're right, it was worded terribly, but my point stands.  The South Korean government was able to do a lot more than the American government was due to perceived freedom infringement of the American people. 

But thats just your perception: 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/health/covid-contact-tracing-tests.html

Quote

Tracking those exposed is so far behind the virus raging in most places that many public health officials believe the money and personnel involved would be better spent on other resources, like increasing test sites, helping schools prepare for reopening and educating the public about mask wearing. Some public health experts now believe that, at the very least, testing and contact tracing need to be scaled back in places with major outbreaks. In some places, they say the effort may never succeed.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/08/07/899954832/coronavirus-cases-are-surging-the-contact-tracing-workforce-is-not

Quote

But in August, with coronavirus cases increasing in more than half of states, America has neither the staff nor the resources to be able to trace the contacts of every new case — a key step in the COVID-19 public health response.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2020/06/15/the-health-202-u-s-isn-t-ready-for-the-contact-tracing-it-needs-to-stem-the-coronavirus/5ee6528b602ff12947e8c0d7/

Quote

But that’s far short of the $3.6 billion needed for the effort, according to an estimate by the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials and the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. 

Sure, some people would be reluctant to share info. But the US's lack of contact tracing seems to mostly steam from a broken system, and a severe lack of resources compared to the number cases. This seems to have little to do with "freedom" and more to with timing, streamlined systems and the earmarking of appropriate resources. 

[MacReady]

To be perfectly honest, I was getting really pissed off on how people took my comment and I went back to quote what I originally said to be like, “No ****inf where did I say any of this stuff,” and then I went back and looked at what I said and I was like, “Oh, ****, no wonder they all said that.”

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

I am with you, in a way it is a backdoor way for the government to do it without doing it.  It is the perception that I do think matter unfortunately.  Whether right or wrong, most of my thoughts/assumptions are based on people not being too bright and people just freak out when the government tells them to do anything, even if for their own benefit. But if an infomercial says it, damn, its good as gold. 

Yea it is, and a more clever way IMO. 

I agree completely, I think a lot of things have been handled wrong and I get the rush to just get info to the public, but there could have been better thought out messages from the start that could have helped tremendously.  Would never have 100% compliance in the US, but would be better than where we are today that is for sure.  I said when this thing first hit, and this is not anything anyone without common sense thought or said themselves, this thing is just going to bounce around the country until/if we get a vaccine because of the way we operate.  What was once in the Northeast has now moved and once it moves out of the South/West it will hit another region and rinse and repeat until we have a vaccine or are all infected.  

The best way to get “universal” compliance is by making it seem like the only reasonable option.  If both sides had adopted a science based stance from the start, instead of creating divisiveness for the sake of politics, we’d be much better off.  

I mean, the US isn’t unique in having opposing parties.  Some things shouldn’t be a political opinion or stance, they should be common sense based on available data.  We just seem to fail to realize this at a lesser rate than other countries.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Outpost31 said:

To be perfectly honest, I was getting really pissed off on how people took my comment and I went back to quote what I originally said to be like, “No ****inf where did I say any of this stuff,” and then I went back and looked at what I said and I was like, “Oh, ****, no wonder they all said that.”

Lol been there..

[winitall]

13 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I will grant I worded that terribly.  I should have said something more like, "Abilities South Korea's government has that America's government does not." 

The reason America's contact tracing sucks is because of what information contact tracers are limited in providing based on perceived privacy rights issues.

And like I said at the very beginning of the post, South Korea is doing so well because mask wearing was considered socially acceptable/polite even before COVID-19. 

 

Even with US privacy laws, the US could still have adopted a lot of what worked for South Korea with no issue. To use school as an analogy, this is like saying the only difference between you getting a 20% on the exam and your friend getting 100% is that his brother gave him his old flash cards. Sure the extra bits helped him, but the major difference is that he put in 100x the work. 

[Hunter2_1]

3 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

It's pretty unfair to compare countries with vastly different population densities.

For example, New Zealand has 18 people per square kilometer while the United States has 36 people per square kilometer. 

Then you consider that:

32,000 died in New York.
15,000 in New Jersey
10,000 in California
10,000 in Texas

Looking specifically at Texas:

1,500 in Harris County (Houston)
800 in Dallas County

It's just really stupid to act like America is so far behind these other countries.

Over HALF of America's cases come from 7 states (California, Florida, Texas, New York, Georgia, Illinois). 

New Zealand is about the size of 2 states on average.

New Zealand has a population of 4.8 million people. 

That would put a country the geographical size of 2 states at the 25th most populous state in the country if it was a part of the country. 

So you could act like New Zealand, an ISLAND, is so much smarter and better than the United States, but it's really not.

It's a lot easier to control a pandemic when you're an island with two distinct landmasses.

 

Yeah, agreed. But...

"So what country has no to little coronavirus deaths? I would love to know".

Twitter users and nuance do not go hand-in-hand.