dante9876 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 So we need to be the worst team in the league next year for trading carr to make sense. Don't quite understand that logic. Vikings have a much better roster than us. No argument there. But cousins did same things carr is doing while he was in Washington to. Carr and cousins is definitely same tier. This argument is splitting hairs between them two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 7 hours ago, NYRaider said: Yeah our skill position players aren't even remotely comparable to the Vikings group. That someone actually tries to argue that is just pure insanity. Look, folks can criticize Carr about his play and that he should arguably elevate our skill position players. That's fine. But at least acknowledge the exceptionally low ceiling those skill position players have regardless. Even a Brady or Rodgers isn't elevating most of our guys higher than fringe depth players. The Vikings have the best WR in the NFL, a guy who has played like a #1 and is probably one of the best #2's in the league, a pretty underrated TE, a WR3 producing at solid #2 rates when called upon, one of the top 5 RBs in the league being backed up by a guy who has proven himself more than capable of carrying a load (if Mattison isn't one of the top 20 RBs in the league himself, I'd be shocked. He looks every bit a starter just stuck behind a great.) Our talent is nowhere near that level on our best days. Renfrow is a WR3 playing as our defacto 1. He's a great 3, but he's a 3 every day of the week. Desean Jackson hasn't been particularly relevant in like 5 years and was never more than a #2 in his prime. There's a reason he was available, and it's not just because he wanted out of LA. Jones, I wanted to give a shot to. But even me and @Jeremy408 mentioned he's got a WR3 ceiling, we just had no other options. Edwards hasn't proved anything in the NFL and is no more than inconsistent "potential" at this point. Waller is great, but no offense runs through the TE THAT much, and he's been nicked up and limited in his effectiveness. Moreau is a good TE and probably starts in a few places. But we rarely deploy 2 TE sets, so it's a paper tiger. He's good, not offense making. Jacobs is a sub 4 ypc back who has gotten worse every year. He produced ok results with one of the best O-lines in the league, but isn't reliable or game changing, and the number of teams that would deploy him as a feature back are in the low single digits. Drake was a decent backup that had some traits we could use, but he too is a backup role player RB in the league on most teams. Anyone comparing the Raiders to the Vikings has no clue what they're talking about, period. Outside of Detroit, Jacksonville, Atlanta, and the Jets, we arguably have the worst skill position sets and depth in the NFL, and hell, I'd take Detroit's skill players over ours in a heartbeat at this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, dante9876 said: So we need to be the worst team in the league next year for trading carr to make sense. Don't quite understand that logic. It's not that difficult. Why trade Carr for compensation only to have to use that compensation all up in an effort to leapfrog other teams in the QB derby, when we don't have any other weapons? It's more sensible to trade Carr, tank, and use what could very well be 3 first round picks on a QB, WR, insert position here. If we were an otherwise even decent team, it's a different story. But we have nothing and a rookie QB would be tasked with pulling along a ton of trash. The "stated goal" is a top pick in 2023. If that's the goal, why would someone be dumb enough to risk picking late and using extra resources to get there, when tanking does the same without spending the extra resources. Economics 101. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 52 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: That someone actually tries to argue that is just pure insanity. Look, folks can criticize Carr about his play and that he should arguably elevate our skill position players. That's fine. But at least acknowledge the exceptionally low ceiling those skill position players have regardless. Even a Brady or Rodgers isn't elevating most of our guys higher than fringe depth players. The Vikings have the best WR in the NFL, a guy who has played like a #1 and is probably one of the best #2's in the league, a pretty underrated TE, a WR3 producing at solid #2 rates when called upon, one of the top 5 RBs in the league being backed up by a guy who has proven himself more than capable of carrying a load (if Mattison isn't one of the top 20 RBs in the league himself, I'd be shocked. He looks every bit a starter just stuck behind a great.) Our talent is nowhere near that level on our best days. Renfrow is a WR3 playing as our defacto 1. He's a great 3, but he's a 3 every day of the week. Desean Jackson hasn't been particularly relevant in like 5 years and was never more than a #2 in his prime. There's a reason he was available, and it's not just because he wanted out of LA. Jones, I wanted to give a shot to. But even me and @Jeremy408 mentioned he's got a WR3 ceiling, we just had no other options. Edwards hasn't proved anything in the NFL and is no more than inconsistent "potential" at this point. Waller is great, but no offense runs through the TE THAT much, and he's been nicked up and limited in his effectiveness. Moreau is a good TE and probably starts in a few places. But we rarely deploy 2 TE sets, so it's a paper tiger. He's good, not offense making. Jacobs is a sub 4 ypc back who has gotten worse every year. He produced ok results with one of the best O-lines in the league, but isn't reliable or game changing, and the number of teams that would deploy him as a feature back are in the low single digits. Drake was a decent backup that had some traits we could use, but he too is a backup role player RB in the league on most teams. Anyone comparing the Raiders to the Vikings has no clue what they're talking about, period. Outside of Detroit, Jacksonville, Atlanta, and the Jets, we arguably have the worst skill position sets and depth in the NFL, and hell, I'd take Detroit's skill players over ours in a heartbeat at this point. I agree but I also don’t think carr would give a guy like theilen opportunities to show how good of a wr he is cause carr is picky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said: I agree but I also don’t think carr would give a guy like theilen opportunities to show how good of a wr he is cause carr is picky Maybe, maybe not. And that's fair. Would've been nice if at some point in the last near decade we had the overall talent (O-line, solid run game, WR corps, D) at once to find out. I really hope we do better by our next QB. We sort of Alex Smith'd Carr during his time here between poor talent at various levels and a revolving door at HC and OC. Whether it's Carr, Bryce Young, some currently unknown QB at some D-2 school, Nathan Peterman, I think we can all agree whoever we have at QB shouldn't have the same overall circumstances to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitty 2.0 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said: It's not that difficult. Why trade Carr for compensation only to have to use that compensation all up in an effort to leapfrog other teams in the QB derby, when we don't have any other weapons? It's more sensible to trade Carr, tank, and use what could very well be 3 first round picks on a QB, WR, insert position here. If we were an otherwise even decent team, it's a different story. But we have nothing and a rookie QB would be tasked with pulling along a ton of trash. The "stated goal" is a top pick in 2023. If that's the goal, why would someone be dumb enough to risk picking late and using extra resources to get there, when tanking does the same without spending the extra resources. Economics 101. There's probably no quarterbacks in this draft that is any good and probably the same thing for next year. So what are you doing now after not being able to draft a great QB. (because that's the only upgrade to Carr is a great QB not a really good QB) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante9876 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said: It's not that difficult. Why trade Carr for compensation only to have to use that compensation all up in an effort to leapfrog other teams in the QB derby, when we don't have any other weapons? It's more sensible to trade Carr, tank, and use what could very well be 3 first round picks on a QB, WR, insert position here. If we were an otherwise even decent team, it's a different story. But we have nothing and a rookie QB would be tasked with pulling along a ton of trash. The "stated goal" is a top pick in 2023. If that's the goal, why would someone be dumb enough to risk picking late and using extra resources to get there, when tanking does the same without spending the extra resources. Economics 101. Why do you feel getting the number 1 pick in 2023 is the stated goal from a carr trade. You don't have to trade the assets you get from Carr trade to move up for a qb either. You don't have to go the 76xers route in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said: There's probably no quarterbacks in this draft that is any good and probably the same thing for next year. So what are you doing now after not being able to draft a great QB. (because that's the only upgrade to Carr is a great QB not a really good QB) I don't disagree. Unless we're upgrading QB with, say, Rodgers, it's more sensible to keep building a complete team than to take a shot in the dark on less than stellar QB classes, much less load up on draft capital only to give up even more to move up for a QB in a less than stellar class. If we trade Carr, get 2 firsts, and repackage those to move up, meaning we're spending 3 firsts on a QB, you better hope and pray he's an absolute stud that changes the trajectory of the franchise or you've set us back a ton of potential ammo and several years. I've said it several times, I would prefer to keep Carr. But if the organization decides to move on, you do it the smart way, not the Madden Franchise Mode way. Most people who want to get rid of Carr are utterly blinded by wanting to get rid of him and can rarely offer up any sort of realistic alternative that isn't full of conjecture and acknowledges that we have far deeper concerns than QB. They often do things like compare our weapons to the Vikings or hyper-promote guys they want to believe in like Bryan Edwards or talk about how X-named QB (always from a better overall situation) would take the trash we have to the promised land. I've said before, I want to move Carr ASAP because I don't want him to waste the rest of his career languishing in this dumpster fire of crap. And that's the only reason I want to move him, for his benefit. And if we indeed do so, there's nothing remotely sensible about taking everything we could get for him and giving it to someone else so we can draft a shiny new QB toy for everyone to fawn all over until we realize we drafted a mediocre QB with multiple 1st round picks lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 3 hours ago, dante9876 said: So we need to be the worst team in the league next year for trading carr to make sense. Don't quite understand that logic. Absolutely not. We've seen teams like the Jets and Eagles get decent hauls for Sam Darnold and Carson Wentz. Carr is on an extremely team friendly one year deal next season and I think he would thrive in the right situation. The team that I have regularly circled back too is the Saints. Sean Payton revived Drew Brees career and I think Carr would play well for them behind their top tier OL with elite weapons like Kamara/Thomas and a top tier defense. If we do move on from Carr there's no reason/need to rush into drafting one early this year. Bring back Mariota or if the 49ers cut Jimmy G bring him in on a short term prove it deal. Use our draft capital and cap space to improve the team across the board. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said: If we trade Carr, get 2 firsts, and repackage those to move up, meaning we're spending 3 firsts on a QB, you better hope and pray he's an absolute stud that changes the trajectory of the franchise or you've set us back a ton of potential ammo and several years. I've said before, I want to move Carr ASAP because I don't want him to waste the rest of his career languishing in this dumpster fire of crap. And that's the only reason I want to move him, for his benefit. And if we indeed do so, there's nothing remotely sensible about taking everything we could get for him and giving it to someone else so we can draft a shiny new QB toy for everyone to fawn all over until we realize we drafted a mediocre QB with multiple 1st round picks lol. Trading Carr for two firsts and then using those two firsts to move up for another QB would be one of the worst decisions we could make. As you said you're giving way 3 potential high level starters for an unproven rookie QB. If we're going to move him we need to use that draft capital to improve the OL, WR group, and our holes defensively. Agreed. That's why I've said the Saints would make sense for all parties. Payton is a great coach and Carr would be a perfect fit in their system. He took Brees from an afterthought into a HOF QB and Carr would finally have a top tier OL, elite weapons, and a good defense around him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitty 2.0 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Absolutely not. We've seen teams like the Jets and Eagles get decent hauls for Sam Darnold and Carson Wentz. Carr is on an extremely team friendly one year deal next season and I think he would thrive in the right situation. The team that I have regularly circled back too is the Saints. Sean Payton revived Drew Brees career and I think Carr would play well for them behind their top tier OL with elite weapons like Kamara/Thomas and a top tier defense. If we do move on from Carr there's no reason/need to rush into drafting one early this year. Bring back Mariota or if the 49ers cut Jimmy G bring him in on a short term prove it deal. Use our draft capital and cap space to improve the team across the board. And the Jets and Eagles have the same level of QB play as they did before the trades. Edited December 10, 2021 by Bitty 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Just now, Bitty 2.0 said: And the Jets and Eagles have the same lever of QB play as they did before the trades. Jalen Hurts this season has been better then Wentz was for them last season. Darnold/Wilson are on a similar tier though, both guys suck. Carr gets a ton of backlash, from me included, but he has dealt with more BS then probably any QB in the league during his tenure here and we lack talent across the board offensively this season. I like Carr and if we do trade him would love to see him end up with the Saints, I just don't think he's going to be the guy that gets us over the hump. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 hour ago, dante9876 said: Why do you feel getting the number 1 pick in 2023 is the stated goal from a carr trade. You don't have to trade the assets you get from Carr trade to move up for a qb either. You don't have to go the 76xers route in the NFL. " Say we go 6-11 and end up picking 10th. We would be in a great position to package that pick along with the two 1sts to get into the top 2-3. " Probably because that is what the stated goal in the conversation was..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 33 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Trading Carr for two firsts and then using those two firsts to move up for another QB would be one of the worst decisions we could make. As you said you're giving way 3 potential high level starters for an unproven rookie QB. Thank you! By all means, move the guy. I'm not David Carr, so I'm not going to be personally offended. But when you do, at least be intelligent in what you do with the haul. Lumping 3 1st rounders together to move up is, frankly, never the intelligent thing to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 3 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said: I agree but I also don’t think carr would give a guy like theilen opportunities to show how good of a wr he is cause carr is picky I do agree Carr is picky, but Theilen is like Renfrow on steroids lol. He just catches the ball. Carr has shown that if you catch the ball he will feed you. Crabtree, Renfrow, Waller. Its the players who struggle with consistency catching that Carr starts to ignore. . . Hello Amarii 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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