The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[MrOaktown_56]

On 6/12/2020 at 9:22 PM, dante9876 said:

When you was going through the 22. Did you see the shots carr missed. Did you see the ones where he refuse to hold the ball an extra sec or 2 to let the route develop. How bout the preread misses. Just womdering. I mean imma call screens and short stuff to if i dont think my qb is gonna take any chances. Aint gonna take a hit to make a play. 

Of course. I'm not done either.

He definitely left some plays on the field in just about every game.

I think there are definitely times when he should hold the ball longer as well. Having WR he can trust IMO will mean he will throw more 50-50 balls, use the sideline more, and hopefully extend more plays.

Honestly though, if Gruden wanted to tailor the offense to Carr, he would run more spread/gun stuff. I hope he does this year.

[MrOaktown_56]

23 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

It’s refreshing to actually get some good insight and analysis and not just complaining and b**ing like so many people do.

Id like to know what you thought of the separation the WRs were getting (or not getting) downfield on intermediate to deep routes.  From the precursory look I took from all22s the separation was most often very lacking.  It wasn’t always but I could understand why Carr wasn’t slinging it, he lacked trust in the WRs.  

I absolutely think this is why we chose Ruggs, which is dangerous speed, and Edwards with his size+speed.  I think Gruden and Mayock recognized the lack of  separation AND playmaking after the catch or at the catch point was really limiting our schemes and play calling.  Hopefully Ruggs speed can allow him to get separation deep and force S’s to play back.  However, we’ll need to hit on these deep passes enough for teams to continuously cover deep.  If we’re not teams will slowly creep up to stop the run and minimize short routes and just be willing to take their chances on getting burned deep.

I hope Edwards becomes a nice intermediate to deep passing option.  Long term I think we should try and bring in a top tier WR1 to complement Ruggs.  Luckily for now I believe we should be able to get by on the depth of our TEs, WRs, and RBs.

I think its a combination of stuff.

Like on some of Gruden's vertical pass plays, all the receivers would be running vertical and no one would be underneath/there for a dumpoff.

I saw one really good instance against KC where Washington got about 20-25 yards on a screen where they did that.

I also think Gruden called a lot of plays "for the sticks", i.e. only calling vertical pass plays on 3rd and long, as opposed to mixing them in at various times in the game (and not just running on 1st and 10). Defenses can start to key in on that.

The biggest issue was the lack of elite vertical deep speed. If a corner doesn't respect you going deep, they will sit on your routes. 

Once Tyrell got injured, Waller was really the only skill position player with serious speed/juice.

When you lack speed, you also lack the ability to win on deep overs/crossing routes, which a lot of vertical pass teams use very effectively. Like I remember Robby Anderson toasting Mullen on a deep over route and Mullen is no slouch.

When you can have multiple receivers that can win on go's, posts, deep overs, and deep crossing routes, it puts stress on safeties and leads to miscues/big chunk plays as well.

Just some thoughts...

[Darbsk]

Some really good posts in here of all different opinions, so much more productive and better than the previous QB/Carr threads 😁😁

If Carr happens to get injured early, say in pre season (obviously hoping that doesn't happen) what would be our expectations of Mariota?? 

Do we think there would be major changes to the scheme to accommodate him?

[MrOaktown_56]

19 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Some really good posts in here of all different opinions, so much more productive and better than the previous QB/Carr threads 😁😁

If Carr happens to get injured early, say in pre season (obviously hoping that doesn't happen) what would be our expectations of Mariota?? 

Do we think there would be major changes to the scheme to accommodate him?

I think so. I would expect less complex pass plays in terms of verbiage and a lot more designed runs/roll outs.

[Darbsk]

5 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I think so. I would expect less complex pass plays in terms of verbiage and a lot more designed runs/roll outs.

In some ways I feel they are quite similar so I dont think we'd drastically change though as you say, i think we'd look to get Mariota running more. Play wise I fear there would be a decent drop off, I always liked Mariota and hoped he'd be a star but he seemed drained of confidence recently and holding the ball not ready to pull the trigger, indecisive I think he seemed kind of opposite of Carr from what I remember. 

[roi34]

I'm a Carr fan because he cares, works hard at what he does and loves being a Raider. That doesn't mean he's perfect. He floats his deep balls a bit and doesn't take enough chances deep. Hopefully with new toys that will change back to earlier in his career. 

 

In games like MNF and Indy game.  When he is on, he is quite good. Mix in some deep throws and the guy could really turn it up a level this year. 

[Humble_Beast]

I really feel like this might be a breakout year for our Raiders. Last year reminded me of that year we went 7-9 or whatever like 5 years ago. We had good moments in both seasons, but also learned lessons. The next season it came together and we went 12-4. I don’t know about 12-4 but I see a breakout season 

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, Humble_Beast said:

I really feel like this might be a breakout year for our Raiders. Last year reminded me of that year we went 7-9 or whatever like 5 years ago. We had good moments in both seasons, but also learned lessons. The next season it came together and we went 12-4. I don’t know about 12-4 but I see a breakout season 

I’d be with the 12-4 optimism if we added a few veteran pieces before the season started.  I feel we still lack Depth on the DL, a 3rd starting LB, a decent RB2 (one who ran effectively rush the ball... I just don’t THINK Booker is it), at LT2 (unless Parker steps up).... 

Injuries are inevitable and currently we are not equipped to deal with many.

I still think at best we are 11-5.... more likely 10-6...I don’t see the passing game exploding right off that bat.  The Rookies will take time.  Is Williams going to be the player he was in the first 5 weeks throughout the entire season?

Also, we’ll need a good season out of Collins and Randall plus Hurst, Hall, and Key to develop.  I’m pretty certain Crosby and Ferrell will become productive DEs.  I think the play of the DL will determine he success of the defense.  Can Marinelli stop the run and add interior pass rushing?

Hopefully, we sign a LB like Nigel Bradham or Alec Olgetree or Mark Barron, DL like Dion Jordan, and trade for a RB2 who can run with force.  We just need to plug some holes with stop gaps for a year until we can upgrade next offseason and hopefully we a contender.
 

 

[MrOaktown_56]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’d be with the 12-4 optimism if we added a few veteran pieces before the season started.  I feel we still lack Depth on the DL, a 3rd starting LB, a decent RB2 (one who ran effectively rush the ball... I just don’t THINK Booker is it), at LT2 (unless Parker steps up).... 

Injuries are inevitable and currently we are not equipped to deal with many.

I still think at best we are 11-5.... more likely 10-6...I don’t see the passing game exploding right off that bat.  The Rookies will take time.  Is Williams going to be the player he was in the first 5 weeks throughout the entire season?

Also, we’ll need a good season out of Collins and Randall plus Hurst, Hall, and Key to develop.  I’m pretty certain Crosby and Ferrell will become productive DEs.  I think the play of the DL will determine he success of the defense.  Can Marinelli stop the run and add interior pass rushing?

Hopefully, we sign a LB like Nigel Bradham or Alec Olgetree or Mark Barron, DL like Dion Jordan, and trade for a RB2 who can run with force.  We just need to plug some holes with stop gaps for a year until we can upgrade next offseason and hopefully we a contender.
 

 

We still have 9 mil in cap space. We can definitely add a few vets if we need to.

I think DL is the most likely place.

[jimkelly02]

45 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

We still have 9 mil in cap space. We can definitely add a few vets if we need to.

I think DL is the most likely place.

Oh I know we CAN, but will we is the question.  It’s not like we’re doomed to be a season of constant losing if we don’t address these minor wholes in the roster, but I do think we can certainly be a better team if we address them.  There’s still some really decent FAs out there.... and these guy are likely to sign for between 2M’ish at most to just above the veteran minimum plus the salary cap subsidized signing bonus in some cases.  Right now if we sign a veteran for the minimum with the 137.5K Signing Bonus they will lower our cap figure $137,500, as the 54th player makes $750k.

 

I wish we used this new cap credit to keep Joseph and/or Washington:

There are even some salary cap credits, from the NEW CBA, still out there for us to use:

”Four-year qualifying contract: Another type of veteran salary benefit, it can be offered to a player with at least four credited seasons whose contract with a team has expired after being on said team for four or more consecutive, uninterrupted league years prior to his contract expiring. Such a player must have been on the team's 90-man active/inactive list for said seasons (and every regular-season and postseason game). Teams can sign a maximum of two eligible players to this type of salary benefit.

A qualifying contract under this benefit is a one-year deal with a base salary of up to $1.25 million more (set to increase in 2022) than the minimum base salary for said player. However, if a team does sign two players to a qualifying contract, it can only give a combined $1.25 million in additional base salary between the two deals. Under such agreements, only the applicable minimum base salary (not the $1.25 million benefit) is charged against the salary cap.”

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know-0ap3000001106817

This is how Demarcus Robinson signed for 2.3M but only costs $1.05M against the cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/demarcus-robinson-19080/

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by jimkelly02

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

Oh I know we CAN, but will we is the question.  It’s not like we’re doomed to be a season of constant losing if we don’t address these minor wholes in the roster, but I do think we can certainly be a better team if we address them.  There’s still some really decent FAs out there.... and these guy are likely to sign for between 2M’ish at most to just above the veteran minimum plus the salary cap subsidized signing bonus in some cases.  Right now if we sign a veteran for the minimum with the 137.5K Signing Bonus they will lower our cap figure $137,500, as the 54th player makes $750k.

 

I wish we used this new cap credit to keep Joseph and/or Washington:

There are even some salary cap credits, from the NEW CBA, still out there for us to use:

”Four-year qualifying contract: Another type of veteran salary benefit, it can be offered to a player with at least four credited seasons whose contract with a team has expired after being on said team for four or more consecutive, uninterrupted league years prior to his contract expiring. Such a player must have been on the team's 90-man active/inactive list for said seasons (and every regular-season and postseason game). Teams can sign a maximum of two eligible players to this type of salary benefit.

A qualifying contract under this benefit is a one-year deal with a base salary of up to $1.25 million more (set to increase in 2022) than the minimum base salary for said player. However, if a team does sign two players to a qualifying contract, it can only give a combined $1.25 million in additional base salary between the two deals. Under such agreements, only the applicable minimum base salary (not the $1.25 million benefit) is charged against the salary cap.”

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know-0ap3000001106817

This is how Demarcus Robinson signed for 2.3M but only costs $1.05M against the cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/demarcus-robinson-19080/

 

 

Definitely would have been nice to keep Kjo. Bringing in a vet DL/pass rusher would be a good idea IMO.

[Bitty 2.0]

6 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’d be with the 12-4 optimism if we added a few veteran pieces before the season started.  I feel we still lack Depth on the DL, a 3rd starting LB, a decent RB2 (one who ran effectively rush the ball... I just don’t THINK Booker is it), at LT2 (unless Parker steps up).... 

Injuries are inevitable and currently we are not equipped to deal with many.

I still think at best we are 11-5.... more likely 10-6...I don’t see the passing game exploding right off that bat.  The Rookies will take time.  Is Williams going to be the player he was in the first 5 weeks throughout the entire season?

Also, we’ll need a good season out of Collins and Randall plus Hurst, Hall, and Key to develop.  I’m pretty certain Crosby and Ferrell will become productive DEs.  I think the play of the DL will determine he success of the defense.  Can Marinelli stop the run and add interior pass rushing?

Hopefully, we sign a LB like Nigel Bradham or Alec Olgetree or Mark Barron, DL like Dion Jordan, and trade for a RB2 who can run with force.  We just need to plug some holes with stop gaps for a year until we can upgrade next offseason and hopefully we a contender.
 

 

I feel the new LBs alone are worth 2-3 more wins. That's how bad they were last year.

[MrOaktown_56]

31 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I feel the new LBs alone are worth 2-3 more wins. That's how bad they were last year.

Seriously. Watch the Chiefs game and see how much Whitehead alone was victimized. Or tight ends and backs just torching us 24/7. And people eating us up over the middle because we can't run/tackle in the middle.

Abram will help there as well.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Definitely would have been nice to keep Kjo. Bringing in a vet DL/pass rusher would be a good idea IMO.

Especially when you consider the cap savings....

(I think most of us with gladly have Joseph over Heath from a talent standpoint)

... Heath for $3,600,000 or Joseph for $1,188,125???

(Eric Reed could be had for probably the veteran minimum.... still/right now)  I think we really blew our load early signing Heath... 3.6M!?! there are always equally good S’s in FA for under a million.

https://overthecap.com/player/jeff-heath/2525/

Joseph signed for 1yr, $2,431,250 with Cleveland: 1.5M base salary, .5M SB, $281.25K total from Game Roster Bonuses, and miscellaneous $150k bonus (workout bonus?).

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/karl-joseph-18962/

We could have given him a base salary of $2.16M (vet min of 910k and 1.25M cap credit) plus $137.5K signing bonus (max allowed if getting minimum veteran salary credit) plus 250k in weekly roster bonuses (only 9 game bonuses would be LBTE, this only costing $140,625 versus the salary cap).... totalling $2,547,500 in compensation (116.25k more than Cleveland) but would only have a have a cap hit of  $1,188,125 (910k salary, 137.5k SB, 140.625k roster bonus LTBE).

Maybe Joseph just wanted a fresh start and starting job with a new team, IDK.  But I’d definitely would have been nice to have him back instead of signing Heath AND save $1.4M+.

Hopefully next year we can use this credit to resign David Sharpe, Nicholas Morrow, Erick Harris, or Marquel Lee.  All seem like they could be perfect candidates for this cap credit, although Harris and Morrow might command too much money to use it on them. (you only get a total cap credit of 1.25M but can use it on one player or split it up amongst 2 guys)

I’m still holding out hope we resign Dion Jordan! I realize the likelihood of it happening is significantly less with every day but I’m sticking to it, lol.  I really like how he played last year and think he can be really useful for us.

If we could sign Dion Jordan and a LB (maybe they beat out Lee for SAM spot, if not their depth) like Nigel Bradham... or even Will Compton... i think those moves would pay off.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I feel the new LBs alone are worth 2-3 more wins. That's how bad they were last year.

I’m so excited to see Littleton and Nick K.... it’s been so long since we had good LB play.
It seems like we really never solved having to cover TEs for Tony Gonzales career (drafted in ‘97)... Antonio Gates career (‘03 UDFA) .... and now Hunter Henry plus Travis Kelce’s (and now Noah Fant too) career.  
Back in ‘99 we took Derrick Gibson to shut down TEs and that didn’t work out (I really thought he was gonna do it.... but I was young and dumb, heck I thought Dudley was going to be a great TE).... and besides a couple of years with Willie Thomas and Rod Woodson giving TEs some good coverage (and I guess Thomas Howard RIP had his moments of good coverage but I never felt like he shutting down TEs) we’ve been losing game after game each year because we can’t cover the TE.

I’m really excited to have Littleton and Abrams to cover TEs this year. I totally expect them to minimize TEs.