2021 Draft Thread

[Bobby816]

9 hours ago, KingOfNewYork said:

He was Brett Favre without the cannon or accuracy. The hope was pro coaching would help him but it hasn’t. Now he’s got to overcome the mental battle.

Think about it this way, every time Darnold throws a pass I think it’s getting picked off. That’s how bad it’s been.

Pro coaching? He got Gase

[Dr.O]

9 hours ago, KingOfNewYork said:

He was Brett Favre without the cannon or accuracy. The hope was pro coaching would help him but it hasn’t. Now he’s got to overcome the mental battle.

Think about it this way, every time Darnold throws a pass I think it’s getting picked off. That’s how bad it’s been.

This. This is basically how I feel at this point. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that when Flacco went in our offense started to look better. 

[Bobby816]

Really don't like the edge class this year. I do like the CB class though.

The 3 scenarios I see happening are this...

1. We trade for Watson and have to give up the 2nd pick and obviously more.

2. We draft a QB at 2. But then we need to draft offense after that. If we think just a QB change is all we need... we are in big trouble. That 23rd and 34th picks need to be used to help the offense as well. WR and OL ideally. Maybe even RB at 34 if Harris or Etienne are there.

3. We stick with Darnold. For me if we do that we should be trading out of that 2nd spot to a QB needy team. The perfect trade for me is to just move back to 4 and ATL drafts their QB for the future. Letting us still able to draft one of Smith, Chase or Sewell. Acquiring their 35th pick and 68th picks as well. That then leaves us still having the 23, 34, 35, 66, 68, 86 and 97 picks in the top 100. 

[jetfuel34]

38 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Really don't like the edge class this year. I do like the CB class though.

The 3 scenarios I see happening are this...

1. We trade for Watson and have to give up the 2nd pick and obviously more.

2. We draft a QB at 2. But then we need to draft offense after that. If we think just a QB change is all we need... we are in big trouble. That 23rd and 34th picks need to be used to help the offense as well. WR and OL ideally. Maybe even RB at 34 if Harris or Etienne are there.

3. We stick with Darnold. For me if we do that we should be trading out of that 2nd spot to a QB needy team. The perfect trade for me is to just move back to 4 and ATL drafts their QB for the future. Letting us still able to draft one of Smith, Chase or Sewell. Acquiring their 35th pick and 68th picks as well. That then leaves us still having the 23, 34, 35, 66, 68, 86 and 97 picks in the top 100. 

I like 1 or 3. I think 2 is a bad idea because Wilson or Fields do nothing for me. 

[mattmanz91]

Take it for what it's worth but Darnold should be done here. When your receivers aren't sticking up for you, it's not a good look. Add to that, Mechi Becton advocating for Watson multiple times on social media and it doesn't look good for Sam. 

[mattmanz91]

Just now, jetfuel34 said:

I like 1 or 3. I think 2 is a bad idea because Wilson or Fields do nothing for me. 

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you don't like about Wilson. The more I watch the more I like. Tall enough (needs to add a little muscle) super athletic, very mobile inside and outside the pocket, extremely accurate on off platform throws (since PFF started tracking tight window throws, Zach Wilson has the highest grade in the history of the stat) he reads the field well, always keeps his eyes down field, throws to his second and third read often. This kid checks all the boxes. If Lawrence wasn't in this draft, it would still be considered a strong draft class for QBs.

[jetfuel34]

9 minutes ago, mattmanz91 said:

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you don't like about Wilson. The more I watch the more I like. Tall enough (needs to add a little muscle) super athletic, very mobile inside and outside the pocket, extremely accurate on off platform throws (since PFF started tracking tight window throws, Zach Wilson has the highest grade in the history of the stat) he reads the field well, always keeps his eyes down field, throws to his second and third read often. This kid checks all the boxes. If Lawrence wasn't in this draft, it would still be considered a strong draft class for QBs.

Did you look at the competition Wilson went against? Did you see the open windows he had to throw in? Did you see when he threw the open in those huge open windows that the WR had to adjust and even had to dive for them when he could not hit them in stride? Did you see most of the time he had little to no presuure on him during these throws? This scares me on him. Now if I did have too choose one guy I would take either  Jones or Wilson.  I just don't see this QB class as a great QB class. I think these guys are going to be like Winston and Mariota type players. They are not startng QB's and why do you want to waste pick #2 on a career backup QB. 

[mattmanz91]

15 minutes ago, jetfuel34 said:

Did you look at the competition Wilson went against? Did you see the open windows he had to throw in? Did you see when he threw the open in those huge open windows that the WR had to adjust and even had to dive for them when he could not hit them in stride? Did you see most of the time he had little to no presuure on him during these throws? This scares me on him. Now if I did have too choose one guy I would take either  Jones or Wilson.  I just don't see this QB class as a great QB class. I think these guys are going to be like Winston and Mariota type players. They are not startng QB's and why do you want to waste pick #2 on a career backup QB. 

The competition argument is a weak one, it's not like he has Alabama talent around him and he's playing against scrubs, he has equal talent around him (is there a player on his team that will be drafted earlier than the third round?) He consistently makes everyone around him better. For all the tape of him throwing inaccurate throws, there's a lot more of him throwing accurate passes and hitting guys in stride. There's also plenty of tape showing him feel the pressure and evade it to throw a strike. My point is, he has all the stuff you can't coach and the small knocks against his game, can be coached. I guess I'm just a lot higher on him than you which is fine, we can agree to disagree. I think the kids gonna be a stud if developed correctly.

Edited February 5, 2021 by mattmanz91

[jetfuel34]

1 minute ago, mattmanz91 said:

The competition argument is a weak one, it's not like he has Alabama talent around him and he's playing against scrubs, he has equal talent around him (is there a player on his temathat will be drafted earlier than the third round?) He consistent makes everyone around him better. For all the tape of him throwing inaccurate throws, there's a lot more of him throwing accurate passes and hitting guys in stride. There's also plenty of tape showing him feel the pressure and evade it to throw a strike. My point is, he has all the stuff you can't coach and tje samll knocks against his game can be coached. I guess I'm just a lot higher on him than you which is fine, we can agree to disagree. I think the kids gonna be a stud if developed correctly.

Yup you are right. I just don't see him as a starting QB in the NFL. If I was GM Watson would be my number 1 target follwed by Sam, and then a rookie QB. If it was a rookie QB I would want to trade down because I really thnk Lance, Jones, Wilson and Fields is not much seperation their. I think in the long run Jones has the best chance to be a good starting QB. I'm just not a fan of running QB's and I think the NFL will move back to the pyre passer because you just can't take that chance on a 30 plus million dollar guy running 8 times in a game and taking those hits. 

[xrade]

14 minutes ago, jetfuel34 said:

Did you look at the competition Wilson went against? Did you see the open windows he had to throw in

Competition is relative. He also did not have the players around him like Lawrence or Fields. I challenged someone else on this board to name one WR on BYU off the top of their head who will be a day one or two pick. Predictable silence.

I have only watched two BYU games this year. His game against UCF in the Boca Raton Bowl was impressive with TIGHT throws. In fact, his third TD was in such a tight window it was, IMO, a bad decision on his part. But it was a dime and thrown on a rope. His game against CCU was certainly less impressive. The real question is can Wilson become an NFL QB or will his NFL career be like the CCU game. From looking at his play in two games and watching tape, I believe he can be a damn good NFL QB. And please don’t complain about hitting wide open receivers because Sam does not even see them.

Here are the highlights from the UCF game the throw I mentioned above is at the 5:50 mark.

 

[Bobby816]

52 minutes ago, mattmanz91 said:

The competition argument is a weak one, it's not like he has Alabama talent around him and he's playing against scrubs, he has equal talent around him (is there a player on his team that will be drafted earlier than the third round?) He consistently makes everyone around him better. For all the tape of him throwing inaccurate throws, there's a lot more of him throwing accurate passes and hitting guys in stride. There's also plenty of tape showing him feel the pressure and evade it to throw a strike. My point is, he has all the stuff you can't coach and the small knocks against his game, can be coached. I guess I'm just a lot higher on him than you which is fine, we can agree to disagree. I think the kids gonna be a stud if developed correctly.

Offenses have the advantage though. So to say his talent around evens out the defensive competition IMO is weak. He with an advantage had 1 good year. Why are we erasing his 2 awful seasons previous to this last year? You drafting a guy 2nd overall who played 1 good team and didn't look good either. He played 1 team (and I'm using the term good loosely) in Coastal Carolina and had a line of 1 td and 1 int and just over a 60% completion percentage. He racked up his stats in games like  Texas State, North Alabama, Houston, etc. These aren't good teams. Look back to 2019... he has a season of 11 tds and 9 ints. 4 of those tds against an awful opponent in UMass. You take that game away and his line is 8 tds to 9 ints for the year.

 

If we are drafting a QB at 2 IMO it needs to be Fields. as of right now that's my stance. I still think we should give a good package away for Watson. But sticking with Darnold looks like a better play for us now.

[mattmanz91]

42 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Offenses have the advantage though. So to say his talent around evens out the defensive competition IMO is weak. He with an advantage had 1 good year. Why are we erasing his 2 awful seasons previous to this last year? You drafting a guy 2nd overall who played 1 good team and didn't look good either. He played 1 team (and I'm using the term good loosely) in Coastal Carolina and had a line of 1 td and 1 int and just over a 60% completion percentage. He racked up his stats in games like  Texas State, North Alabama, Houston, etc. These aren't good teams. Look back to 2019... he has a season of 11 tds and 9 ints. 4 of those tds against an awful opponent in UMass. You take that game away and his line is 8 tds to 9 ints for the year.

 

If we are drafting a QB at 2 IMO it needs to be Fields. as of right now that's my stance. I still think we should give a good package away for Watson. But sticking with Darnold looks like a better play for us now.

He's on record saying he played with pain/discomfort since high school until he got shoulder surgery. He also said last season was the only season he was completely healthy. He also showed massive improvement throughout his college career, didn't Joe Burrow do the same thing last year? When I watch tape I see a guy who drastically improved in every way. Most importantly: scanning the field, eyes down field, going through progressions quickly, spreading the ball out, good touch on his passes. With the right caching I think he can be a stud.

Edited February 5, 2021 by mattmanz91

[Bobby816]

12 minutes ago, mattmanz91 said:

He's on record saying he played with pain/discomfort since high school until he got shoulder surgery. He also said last season was the only season he was completely healthy. He also showed massive improvement throughout his college career, didn't Joe Burrow do the same thing last year? When I watch tape I see a guy who drastically improved in every way. Most importantly: scanning the field, eyes down field, going through progressions quickly, spreading the ball out, good touch on his passes. With the right caching I think he can be a stud.

What I got out of this is he's a baby. Which by the way kind of fits his whole look.  

So a guy that has been tough like Fields and still played through pain and at a higher level than that of Wilson, doesn't get credit? This is tackle football. Rarely is any player 100% healthy. Sounds like excuses made for him. So for 2 years that's his excuse that he wasn't healthy and that's why he sucked. And finally he has a good season and he's healthy. I'm not buying it. He's about as risky as a QB can get at 2. I'd have to dig deep. But I'd have to guess that no QB has ever been drafted in the top 2, after only being 1 year removed from a season like he had in 2019. 

[Dr.O]

The Zach Wilson slander is real huh?

[mattmanz91]

11 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

What I got out of this is he's a baby. Which by the way kind of fits his whole look.  

So a guy that has been tough like Fields and still played through pain and at a higher level than that of Wilson, doesn't get credit? This is tackle football. Rarely is any player 100% healthy. Sounds like excuses made for him. So for 2 years that's his excuse that he wasn't healthy and that's why he sucked. And finally he has a good season and he's healthy. I'm not buying it. He's about as risky as a QB can get at 2. I'd have to dig deep. But I'd have to guess that no QB has ever been drafted in the top 2, after only being 1 year removed from a season like he had in 2019. 

How is rejecting surgery and pushing through the pain of a torn labrum so he can continue practicing and playing football being a baby? Also playing through a torn labrum in your throwing shoulder is an injury that would directly affect your play as a QB more than almost any other QB injury, so it could definitely be one of the major reasons for the drastic leap on production.

I think it's much more risky to think Darnold can become a top 10 QB even with WR and OL talent around him than it is to draft Wilson and develop him into a top 10 QB.

Edited February 5, 2021 by mattmanz91