Dark Souls Mafia - GAME OVER - BOSSES WIN!!

[Pickle Rick]

7 minutes ago, SwAg said:

This is my take on the situation:

It's not an issue of whether someone is on a personal vendetta or not.  Nor is it an issue of whether you believe the vendetta can be proven.  None of us will truly know whether such a vendetta existed by anyone, but the accusation of it facilities the type of conflict the Mods are concerned about.  The discussion on this topic spiraled out of control this time around.

Whether MWil put you two under undue scrutiny due to a grudge, or whether you two believe that to be the case, is not the issue.  The issue is how it manifested in the game.  It is not easy to leave that type of thing at the door, and it is especially not easy when you believe it to be true.  But, you have to do, at least initially.  You are allowed to think it.  You are allowed for it to inform your actions.  But, you should not have that be at the forefront of the game, or even used as a device in the game.

These next two sentences are where the Mods will not like my answer:  I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're not allowed to be frustrated if X is spamming you with their hundredth accusation that is barely plausible, let alone credible.  And in that scenario, describing that behavior as a fixation would be apt. 

My advice generally and in the above scenario is that you can balk at the question, refuse to respond, explain your refusal to respond, or accept the risk that accompanies a lack of response in terms of game-related consequences.  Another way to navigate is to convince others that the accusations do not warrant a response, then you can spare yourself the frustration. But, you owe it to the other participants to at least attempt to play within the confines of the game.

I think this might be the most important takeaway, so even if you disagree with everything else, I would take this to heart:  it is a game of rhetoric and deception, and when you make the rhetoric about an event that is beyond the current game, it's asking people to make a judgment that they might not be comfortable with making because you're asking them to make a personal assessment on the character and vice of another player.  In this instance, the discussion absolutely spiraled, while others tried to bring the discussion back to the game, and there was a refusal.  I think that is the catalyst beyond the events that lead to it. 

I don't think MWil did anything wrong at the outset of the game, but definitely contributed to the deterioration until he asked to be removed.  To my recollection, MWil voiced concerns that were game-related and based on game posture, as he understood the game.  Later, we discovered he was mistaken, or lied, but lying about game-related events is expected and a non-issue within the rules.  We even have a decent comparison here: you cannot explain why it is okay for Rick to fake an investigation on Counselor, but not okay for MWil to fake an investigation on one of you.  The summarily dismissed accusation based on external factors and fighting over it caused the issue.  It's not an argument that can be settled within the confines of the game, and thus lends itself to a decline in the quality of the thread and gameplay.

So, I would recommend taking this advice.  It's as good as you'll get.  You do not have to accept fault, and really, you do not even have to stop feeling a certain way.  You just have to internalize and channel it into a game-related conversation.

 

(Side note: @Tk3 what's the tally up to now?)

[Scoundrel]

The children are running rampant 

[The Orca]

10 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

I actually think Swag's post touches on a lot of the right points.

Agreed and I think if you like it, you should know I did exactly what he was suggesting. Did I break after being called awful repeatedly, yes. Did I go overboard or break the rules, I dont believe so. Could have I handled it differently, sure. I avoided Mwil over and over and refused to answer. I went back at him after I reached a certain point, and I made it a point to use the words he did. I accept some blame in the back and forth, but I'm willing to bet no one had a problem when it was just him saying it. What changes when I dont accept the "bullying"?

If you want to look at how I am with Matts and Swag at different points in time a common difference has emerged between then and now. I wont say it, but I believe 100% it should be clear 

[The Orca]

23 minutes ago, SwAg said:

This is my take on the situation:

It's not an issue of whether someone is on a personal vendetta or not.  Nor is it an issue of whether you believe the vendetta can be proven.  None of us will truly know whether such a vendetta existed by anyone, but the accusation of it facilities the type of conflict the Mods are concerned about.  The discussion on this topic spiraled out of control this time around.

Whether MWil put you two under undue scrutiny due to a grudge, or whether you two believe that to be the case, is not the issue.  The issue is how it manifested in the game.  It is not easy to leave that type of thing at the door, and it is especially not easy when you believe it to be true.  But, you have to do, at least initially.  You are allowed to think it.  You are allowed for it to inform your actions.  But, you should not have that be at the forefront of the game, or even used as a device in the game.

These next two sentences are where the Mods will not like my answer:  I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're not allowed to be frustrated if X is spamming you with their hundredth accusation that is barely plausible, let alone credible.  And in that scenario, describing that behavior as a fixation would be apt. 

My advice generally and in the above scenario is that you can balk at the question, refuse to respond, explain your refusal to respond, or accept the risk that accompanies a lack of response in terms of game-related consequences.  Another way to navigate is to convince others that the accusations do not warrant a response, then you can spare yourself the frustration. But, you owe it to the other participants to at least attempt to play within the confines of the game.

I think this might be the most important takeaway, so even if you disagree with everything else, I would take this to heart:  it is a game of rhetoric and deception, and when you make the rhetoric about an event that is beyond the current game, it's asking people to make a judgment that they might not be comfortable with making because you're asking them to make a personal assessment on the character and vice of another player.  In this instance, the discussion absolutely spiraled, while others tried to bring the discussion back to the game, and there was a refusal.  I think that is the catalyst beyond the events that lead to it. 

I don't think MWil did anything wrong at the outset of the game, but definitely contributed to the deterioration until he asked to be removed.  To my recollection, MWil voiced concerns that were game-related and based on game posture, as he understood the game.  Later, we discovered he was mistaken, or lied, but lying about game-related events is expected and a non-issue within the rules.  We even have a decent comparison here: you cannot explain why it is okay for Rick to fake an investigation on Counselor, but not okay for MWil to fake an investigation on one of you.  The summarily dismissed accusation based on external factors and fighting over it caused the issue.  It's not an argument that can be settled within the confines of the game, and thus lends itself to a decline in the quality of the thread and gameplay.

So, I would recommend taking this advice.  It's as good as you'll get.  You do not have to accept fault, and really, you do not even have to stop feeling a certain way.  You just have to internalize and channel it into a game-related conversation.

Thanks for the input. I'll try to do it more when I start using words in games again

[MD4L]

Good game to the winners. I could’ve been part of the group if the game was one night phase shorter.

16 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

 

 

 

@MD4L

I got you guys wrong, sorry friendo's 

 

It happens. I had to fight off allegations but lasted much longer than recent games. Plus I actually knew what was going on. I had fun playing.

16 hours ago, bigbadbuff said:

MD was on me from the start. I wanted to throw some confusion, which worked. 
 

My reason for killing him last night was because that was a complete wtf move that would give pause that i would do such a thing. I was dead today either way

Told you the grownups came to play. I wouldn’t go after anyone that says I should do more, but at the end of games, I am built for that type of stuff. I’d probably say I’m one of the best closers in terms of assessing reads and other things that make good mafia players great.

Day 1-Day 6 ish admittedly isn’t as pretty. Too much stuff to track.

[MD4L]

14 hours ago, HoboRocket said:

 

 

@bigbadbuff @MD4L @swoosh - end game from hell for sure.

I was right about Buff very early, but wrong about MD and swoosh. Still, somehow everyone on my list from like day 3 somehow made it to the end game but got lynched/killed.

 

It was fun playing with you too man.

Separate note, @Blue was the worst person to be a guardian angel for bc I had to convince him the entire game that I had good intentions. I originally chose Mwil but it was great that Blue replaces him. My activity doesn’t increase otherwise.

@bigbadbuff getting yourself voted away caused losses for other people too.

Edited May 12, 2020 by MD4L
Grammar

[Tk3]

15 hours ago, SwAg said:

So tk3 played as poorly out of the thread as he did in the thread.

My first redirect was done in panic. It was not a smart decision. I wish I held onto it.

My second redirect was an attempt to redirect someone who wasn't likely to be lynched, onto themselves, essentially as a last measure of verification. We had the lynch narrowed to just a couple of people, so my goal was to try to root out the possibility of one of the less likely candidates to have fooled everyone.

If I had another redirect, I would have sent Orca to himself. It just made sense

With only one mafia left, the only logical use of a redirect would be for a player onto himself, and since your claimed role wasn't one that would be harmful to send back to you, it felt like a low risk move

[Tk3]

what a treat this post game thread has been!

[HoboRocket]

29 minutes ago, MD4L said:

Good game to the winners. I could’ve been part of the group if the game was one night phase shorter.

It happens. I had to fight off allegations but lasted much longer than recent games. Plus I actually knew what was going on. I had fun playing.

Told you the grownups came to play. I wouldn’t go after anyone that says I should do more, but at the end of games, I am built for that type of stuff. I’d probably say I’m one of the best closers in terms of assessing reads and other things that make good mafia players great.

Day 1-Day 6 ish admittedly isn’t as pretty. Too much stuff to track.

I'm very much in the same boat. My end game record so far is very nice, albeit with only two games under my belt.

[Tk3]

Remember there was a time when TK vs twins was the major drama of this place?

Now I'm like, not even in their top 10 (I think)

Be more like TK vs the twins, not you vs the twins

[MD4L]

5 minutes ago, HoboRocket said:

I'm very much in the same boat. My end game record so far is very nice, albeit with only two games under my belt.

Credit to you. I’m at like 200 games played though😁

[MWil23]

Full disclosure:

@Whicker can attest that I tried to autopsy a living player (SwAg). I misunderstood my role and took the theme literally, that I could autopsy anyone/this was a partial bastard/maybe swingy game because of the “undead” alignment, so I thought we were all already undead. I’ll admittedly take the L there, albeit I’d rather people think I was petty/vindictive instead of incompetent.

[HoboRocket]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Full disclosure:

@Whicker can attest that I tried to autopsy a living player (SwAg). I misunderstood my role and took the theme literally, that I could autopsy anyone/this was a partial bastard/maybe swingy game because of the “undead” alignment, so I thought we were all already undead. I’ll admittedly take the L there, albeit I’d rather people think I was petty/vindictive instead of incompetent.

I misunderstood my abilities, as well. I tried to use a hit on @Dome early - his exchange with Matts had me convinced he was scum until they both explained that I was just horsing around - because I had the Soul of Ornstein, which grants a hit. Didn't realize I had to die for it to actually be useable.

[Blue]

2 hours ago, SwAg said:

I think the conversation would go better if MWil was not absolved of fault on the subject.

 

2 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

 

All started by others and fueled by others

If you remember we were constantly personally attacked with 

"The are cheating"

"They are unethical"

"They tell each other their roles"

_____

Now mwil continues this while we move on.  So who is causing the problem to continue, not the people moving on.....the people who feel the need to continue a vendetta 

___

All of the problems are rooted and originates from others 

 

2 hours ago, The Orca said:

If you want to say going back and forth is part of the precieved grudge...sure maybe. But it's not a vendetta

But I dont and never try to get someone killed and out of the game just to do it regardless of alignment and a detriment of the game

I explained that the "reasons" used to push your lynch and Swag were all legit and some were correct. I've also admitted some may have been biased based on certain things said or done by you and Swag. After a little bit and learning how you all play those improved, the reads improved, and gameplay improved 

It's not how you described because I would rather have won the game than get you (or him) lynched. Did I want to be right absolutely who wouldnt. But it was always a legit read/push on the fact that i was soley playing the game. It also wasnt every vote, every post, every thought for months. This is where the biggest difference lies imo with what went on then and now

I think Swag hit a lot of the same notes I was thinking of in his long post, but I wanted to add that, as someone who came in after (and directly because of) the drama with Mwil, I did not get the sense that what he did in the game was at all related to anything outside the game itself. I can appreciate where Orca was coming from; I certainly think Mwil has some frustration with the frequency of how often he has been scum, and part of being scum is pushing cases you know are bull****. It doesn't make you a popular person with the player you're pushing, and that gets magnified when you end up having to push ****ty cases over and over and over again.

However, there is a difference between saying "Mwil pushes us when we're scum because he thinks we're easy to get mislynched/slip up/etc." and saying "Mwil has a grudge against us." The former is related to how Mwil plays the game as a certain alignment and isn't making a judgment call about him as a person, the latter is entirely based on personal feelings that are unrelated to his alignment, role, or anything else game-related. That's what I believe he and the rest of the Mafia group have an issue with. Even if you thought it was personal, accusing him of that wasn't productive and just escalated the situation for no reason. If you really believed that, PM a mod and talk it out with them in private. Saying it in the thread just detracts from the game, especially for people who aren't directly involved.

Lastly, I understand that the two of you don't think you team up on people or share info or make personal attacks. I don't believe you do either. But what is important here is not whether you intend to do it, or even whether you do it at all, intentionally or not. What matters is the perception that you are ganging up on people for personal reasons. What you think you're doing and even what you're actually doing doesn't matter, so stop trying to use that as an argument. All that matters is how everyone else feels about it. Is it fair that people have that perception? Maybe not. Personally, I would agree that it isn't fair. But that's how it is. If you two don't make serious efforts to change your tone and watch how you phrase things so that it doesn't cross the line, it's not going to lead to Mafia getting banned, but I would not be surprised at all if it led to the two of you being banned from Mafia.

1 hour ago, MD4L said:

It was fun playing with you too man.

Separate note, @Blue was the worst person to be a guardian angel for bc I had to convince him the entire game that I had good intentions. I originally chose Mwil but it was great that Blue replaces him. My activity doesn’t increase otherwise.

@bigbadbuff getting yourself voted away caused losses for other people too.

Sorry MD4L. I should have figured out what you were claiming sooner, everything clicked as soon as the guardian angel claim came down. I knew you weren't Mafia--I actually thought you were Solaire fakeclaiming Town and your wincon was to survive to the end of the game, lol.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Blue

[The Orca]

21 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

 

I think Swag hit a lot of the same notes I was thinking of in his long post, but I wanted to add that, as someone who came in after (and directly because of) the drama with Mwil, I did not get the sense that what he did in the game was at all related to anything outside the game itself. I can appreciate where Orca was coming from; I certainly think Mwil has some frustration with the frequency of how often he has been scum, and part of being scum is pushing cases you know are bull****. It doesn't make you a popular person with the player you're pushing, and that gets magnified when you end up having to push ****ty cases over and over and over again.

However, there is a difference between saying "Mwil pushes us when we're scum because he thinks we're easy to get mislynched/slip up/etc." and saying "Mwil has a grudge against us." The former is related to how Mwil plays the game as a certain alignment and isn't making a judgment call about him as a person, the latter is entirely based on personal feelings that are unrelated to his alignment, role, or anything else game-related. That's what I believe he and the rest of the Mafia group have an issue with. Even if you thought it was personal, accusing him of that wasn't productive and just escalated the situation for no reason. If you really believed that, PM a mod and talk it out with them in private. Saying it in the thread just detracts from the game, especially for people who aren't directly involved.

Lastly, I understand that the two of you don't think you team up on people or share info or make personal attacks. I don't believe you do either. But what is important here is not whether you intend to do it, or even whether you do it at all, intentionally or not. What matters is the perception that you are ganging up on people for personal reasons. What you think you're doing and even what you're actually doing doesn't matter, so stop trying to use that as an argument. All that matters is how everyone else feels about it. Is it fair that people have that perception? Maybe not. Personally, I would agree that it isn't fair. But that's how it is. If you two don't make serious efforts to change your tone and watch how you phrase things so that it doesn't cross the line, it's not going to lead to Mafia getting banned, but I would not be surprised at all if it led to the two of you being banned from Mafia.

Sorry MD4L. I should have figured out what you were claiming sooner, everything clicked as soon as the guardian angel claim came down. I knew you weren't Mafia--I actually thought you were Solaire fakeclaiming Town and your wincon was to survive to the end of the game, lol.

Thanks for the input

1. If people dont want the precieved notion of ganging up, dont lump us together or attack both of us. Heck, a mod basically just called me out and said he politely talked to me via PM, which he hasnt, no mod has. If people want change you cant have a giant disconnect like that. Like, what am I suppose to know or change if people dont use specifics. Apparently saying personal vendetta is a no no. I got it (though i disagree)and wont say it anymore

2. Change what tone? If it's only precieved that we are doing something that needs changing how can we change it if it's actually not what is happening?

3. It wont matter because people will get their wish and I wont speak in future games for a while, but it's good to know so maybe if I know the point i can try to change. I also dont agree that people need to change because they are annoying, but that's another discussion entirely imo