2020 Rookie Talk.

[SalvadorsDeli]

What accounts for Queen being graded so low by PFF? I honestly don't know how to evaluate him one way or another other than to say it feels like I was noticing him making more positive plays earlier in the season but I'd love to hear a breakdown from ppl who understand the position better. 

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

What accounts for Queen being graded so low by PFF? I honestly don't know how to evaluate him one way or another other than to say it feels like I was noticing him making more positive plays earlier in the season but I'd love to hear a breakdown from ppl who understand the position better. 

Simplified, broken tackles and them ascribing blame to him for completed passes in coverage(namely zone). 

Both are areas where he has struggled for us, and finishing as a tackler was an issue for him in college(coverage wasn't) as well. So criticism of him is valid. What I take issue with is how much they weight each error towards an overall grade. The end result is a figure which doesn't properly represent the reality or value of him as a player. You won't see PFF's social media crew running around screaming bust or calling him a bad pick either, because they know the grade is stupid and they'd look dumb. They strategically pick and choose which grades to highlight in order to 'protect' the brand. 

I think they have him at 22 or 23 Missed tackles on the year. For that figure to be correct they'd have to be notching him for nearly any situation in which he makes contact with a ball carrier but isn't the final player to bring him down. Which is always going to draw inconsistent and non reflective grading at the LB position. 

This is a good and recent example of a play from Queen to illustrate my point-

 

Here Queen shoots the gap and makes a great play on the ball carrier, and an unblocked(of course) Judon cleans it up. Now if #32 is able to find his balance after that contact with PQ and not get stopped there, I think PFF marks that as a deduction for Queen and another missed tackle gets added to his total. Which is inherently flawed as even if Queen's tackle 'failed' so to speak, he still impacted the play in a positive way through disruption. 

Especially in our system where Wink has our LBs flying around and moved around, you're going to get some wacky numbers if PFF goes about business the way I think. Add in actual coverage lapses from Queen and then the ones where PFF's nerd incel soldiers just assign blame to him as the MLB...because they don't actually know the responsibilities within our system. Then the picture starts to become more clear. 

Some PFF Grades of recent 1st Round LBs:

Nearly all of these are 'failing' grades, and only one player Roquan Smith has a grade that isn't designated 'Below Average'. 9 of the 10 First Round LBs from the past 3 draft classes are apparently below average players. A notion clearly put forth by PFF's system, but again something you won't see them come out and claim because they'd look like lunatics.

Roquan Smith- 67.2

Tremaine Edmunds- 47.9

Leighton Vander Esch- 50.6

Rashaan Evans- 53.7

Devin White- 43.4

Devin Bush(6 Games ACL)- 59.7

Isaiah Simmons- 59.9

Kenneth Murray- 54.4

Jordyn Brooks- 47.6

Patrick Queen- 29.8

 

Even amongst the other bad grades PQ's stands out. The grade is so outlandish I've filed it way with some other PFF gems. Jeremy Zuttah and Tony Jefferson's high marks have new company.

Again, I'm not simpin for the guy either. He's had some real and significant struggles. To have him as possibly the worst starter in the NFL though, is just laughable.

[SalvadorsDeli]

Might just be Ray Rice nostalgia but there is something so aesthetically pleasing about watching Dobbins. The incredible balance he shows... such a smooth runner. 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Might just be Ray Rice nostalgia but there is something so aesthetically pleasing about watching Dobbins. The incredible balance he shows... such a smooth runner. 

Honestly have no idea how people can claim that Jonathan Taylor is on a whole different tier to Dobbins. I loved them both and obviously I was a little higher on JT coming out due to the added power and long speed being Jamal Lewis-esq, but Dobbins easily has superior vision, patience, and contact balance... which was also true in college. Both are absolutely on the same level and I can’t wait to see both dudes tear up the playoffs as I think they will and put themselves on the map as legit top 5-10 RBs in this league on that Nick Chub/Dalvin Cook tier that I claimed they had the potential to be on.

Let’s get it!

Edited January 8, 2021 by diamondbull424

[sp6488]

On 1/6/2021 at 5:03 AM, DreamKid said:

Simplified, broken tackles and them ascribing blame to him for completed passes in coverage(namely zone). 

Both are areas where he has struggled for us, and finishing as a tackler was an issue for him in college(coverage wasn't) as well. So criticism of him is valid. What I take issue with is how much they weight each error towards an overall grade. The end result is a figure which doesn't properly represent the reality or value of him as a player. You won't see PFF's social media crew running around screaming bust or calling him a bad pick either, because they know the grade is stupid and they'd look dumb. They strategically pick and choose which grades to highlight in order to 'protect' the brand. 

I think they have him at 22 or 23 Missed tackles on the year. For that figure to be correct they'd have to be notching him for nearly any situation in which he makes contact with a ball carrier but isn't the final player to bring him down. Which is always going to draw inconsistent and non reflective grading at the LB position. 

This is a good and recent example of a play from Queen to illustrate my point-

 

Here Queen shoots the gap and makes a great play on the ball carrier, and an unblocked(of course) Judon cleans it up. Now if #32 is able to find his balance after that contact with PQ and not get stopped there, I think PFF marks that as a deduction for Queen and another missed tackle gets added to his total. Which is inherently flawed as even if Queen's tackle 'failed' so to speak, he still impacted the play in a positive way through disruption. 

Especially in our system where Wink has our LBs flying around and moved around, you're going to get some wacky numbers if PFF goes about business the way I think. Add in actual coverage lapses from Queen and then the ones where PFF's nerd incel soldiers just assign blame to him as the MLB...because they don't actually know the responsibilities within our system. Then the picture starts to become more clear. 

Some PFF Grades of recent 1st Round LBs:

Nearly all of these are 'failing' grades, and only one player Roquan Smith has a grade that isn't designated 'Below Average'. 9 of the 10 First Round LBs from the past 3 draft classes are apparently below average players. A notion clearly put forth by PFF's system, but again something you won't see them come out and claim because they'd look like lunatics.

Roquan Smith- 67.2

Tremaine Edmunds- 47.9

Leighton Vander Esch- 50.6

Rashaan Evans- 53.7

Devin White- 43.4

Devin Bush(6 Games ACL)- 59.7

Isaiah Simmons- 59.9

Kenneth Murray- 54.4

Jordyn Brooks- 47.6

Patrick Queen- 29.8

 

Even amongst the other bad grades PQ's stands out. The grade is so outlandish I've filed it way with some other PFF gems. Jeremy Zuttah and Tony Jefferson's high marks have new company.

Again, I'm not simpin for the guy either. He's had some real and significant struggles. To have him as possibly the worst starter in the NFL though, is just laughable.

Yep, not all missed tackles are created equal. 

[DreamKid]

Mini thread from Ruiz here on Madubuike. Our young Rook is getting so much love-

 

[SalvadorsDeli]

Not really meant to be a criticism of Patrick Queen because I think we knew he was a bit of a project and will hopefully play a big role with the team moving forward, but our 2020 draft class is starting to feel a lot like the 2018 class with Queen playing the role of Hayden Hurst  and the bigger prizes coming later with Dobbins and Madibuike just like we saw with Lamar, Zeus, and Andrews.

Edited January 14, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli

[sp6488]

16 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Not really meant to be a criticism of Patrick Queen because I think we knew he was a bit of a project and will hopefully play a big role with the team moving forward, but our 2020 draft class is starting to feel a lot like the 2018 class with Queen playing the role of Hayden Hurst  and the bigger prizes coming later with Dobbins and Madibuike just like we saw with Lamar, Zeus, and Andrews.

Not sure that's really fair to Queen given that his profile and the position he plays is one that is likely to be the MOST impacted by lost offseason / camp time. 

Also, it's not a zero sum game where someone picked later being awesome and far outplaying their draft slot making the higher picked guy bad. If Andrews was a zero, I'm sure Hurst would still be here today. A second round pick is good value too, so other teams definitely saw something in him worth paying up for after two years in Baltimore.

[Letsch80]

1 hour ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Not really meant to be a criticism of Patrick Queen because I think we knew he was a bit of a project and will hopefully play a big role with the team moving forward, but our 2020 draft class is starting to feel a lot like the 2018 class with Queen playing the role of Hayden Hurst  and the bigger prizes coming later with Dobbins and Madibuike just like we saw with Lamar, Zeus, and Andrews.

Yeah it's way to early to make a judgement on Queen. He has a lot of good instincts but he needs to bulk up and work on getting off blocks. With a full off season, training camp and pre season I'm fully expecting he and Harrison to be much improved next season.

[RavensTillIDie]

While I agree it's a bit premature to make any sort of definitive judgement on Queen, I will continue to ring the bell for Malik Harrison, who when afforded the opportunity time and time again outshines his 1st round counterpart. I think he has all the tools to be a core piece both now and moving forward, but one of the primary things impeding him from seeing more snaps is the draft status of Queen.

[sp6488]

14 hours ago, RavensTillIDie said:

While I agree it's a bit premature to make any sort of definitive judgement on Queen, I will continue to ring the bell for Malik Harrison, who when afforded the opportunity time and time again outshines his 1st round counterpart. I think he has all the tools to be a core piece both now and moving forward, but one of the primary things impeding him from seeing more snaps is the draft status of Queen.

Have to push back here a bit.. in what way has he outshined Queen? Even if he's been better in some contexts, he's had a significantly more limited role and has been deployed far more strategically. 

[DreamKid]

On 1/6/2021 at 2:03 AM, DreamKid said:

Simplified, broken tackles and them ascribing blame to him for completed passes in coverage(namely zone). 

Both are areas where he has struggled for us, and finishing as a tackler was an issue for him in college(coverage wasn't) as well. So criticism of him is valid. What I take issue with is how much they weight each error towards an overall grade. The end result is a figure which doesn't properly represent the reality or value of him as a player. You won't see PFF's social media crew running around screaming bust or calling him a bad pick either, because they know the grade is stupid and they'd look dumb. They strategically pick and choose which grades to highlight in order to 'protect' the brand. 

I think they have him at 22 or 23 Missed tackles on the year. For that figure to be correct they'd have to be notching him for nearly any situation in which he makes contact with a ball carrier but isn't the final player to bring him down. Which is always going to draw inconsistent and non reflective grading at the LB position. 

This is a good and recent example of a play from Queen to illustrate my point-

 

Here Queen shoots the gap and makes a great play on the ball carrier, and an unblocked(of course) Judon cleans it up. Now if #32 is able to find his balance after that contact with PQ and not get stopped there, I think PFF marks that as a deduction for Queen and another missed tackle gets added to his total. Which is inherently flawed as even if Queen's tackle 'failed' so to speak, he still impacted the play in a positive way through disruption. 

Especially in our system where Wink has our LBs flying around and moved around, you're going to get some wacky numbers if PFF goes about business the way I think. Add in actual coverage lapses from Queen and then the ones where PFF's nerd incel soldiers just assign blame to him as the MLB...because they don't actually know the responsibilities within our system. Then the picture starts to become more clear. 

Some PFF Grades of recent 1st Round LBs:

Nearly all of these are 'failing' grades, and only one player Roquan Smith has a grade that isn't designated 'Below Average'. 9 of the 10 First Round LBs from the past 3 draft classes are apparently below average players. A notion clearly put forth by PFF's system, but again something you won't see them come out and claim because they'd look like lunatics.

Roquan Smith- 67.2

Tremaine Edmunds- 47.9

Leighton Vander Esch- 50.6

Rashaan Evans- 53.7

Devin White- 43.4

Devin Bush(6 Games ACL)- 59.7

Isaiah Simmons- 59.9

Kenneth Murray- 54.4

Jordyn Brooks- 47.6

Patrick Queen- 29.8

 

Even amongst the other bad grades PQ's stands out. The grade is so outlandish I've filed it way with some other PFF gems. Jeremy Zuttah and Tony Jefferson's high marks have new company.

Again, I'm not simpin for the guy either. He's had some real and significant struggles. To have him as possibly the worst starter in the NFL though, is just laughable.

Holy Sh*t...

Look at the similarities between my post from 20 days ago and PFF's bit on Queen from 2 days ago. They even included the recent 1st Round LB grades portion and did exactly what I predicted in the bolded and stayed away from any actual criticism of the pick.

lol 🤣 It literally starts off with a disclaimer-

Seeing a PFF grade in the 20s like Queen’s is jarring, but there is an explanation — playing linebacker in the NFL is difficult, particularly for first-year players.

Here's another gem from them-

The other area is missed tackles. Queen’s 22 missed tackles this season were tied for the most in the NFL with Houston’s Zach Cunningham. The caveat there is that athletic linebackers such as Queen are always going to put themselves in a position to make more tackles — and attempt more difficult tackles — than lesser athletes. That said, 22 is still too many.

 

Of course, they still stand by all of their work though.

And if you pay $450 monthly for PFF Neo Primus Diamond Scout PRO you can find out in depth why Patrick Queen is the worst starter in football, but "there's reason to expect things to start to trend in that direction in 2021"(Referring to him mirroring All Pro Devin White's career).

[wackywabbit]

Yea, that grade has LONG been a joke. He was not even terrible, let a lone the worst player in the league. I am 1000% sure if he was terrible, the coaching staff would have had no problem putting him on the bench, like they've done with plenty of high draft picks. It wasn't out thinnest position or anything. I never thought he didn't deserve to be starting.

That spot is always going to be picked on when you have a trio of corners playing at the level we do. The weakest link on strong coverage unit will always get targeted more than the same player on a defense that can be exploited all over the field. 

[DreamKid]

 

[drd23]

How tf did Queen get more votes than Winfield Jr?

That screams "I just looked at the box score to decide"