Notable Stats

[wackywabbit]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:01 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

Why did LAC's 6 or 7 DBs work so well against Lamar's Baltimore in the 2018 WC?

Why has it not worked since, if/when tried?

@Classic @BaltimoreTerp 

The DBs did not shut down the offense. The D-line did. They wrecked us in the trenches.

There were other factors, but that was the biggest one in that game. The media made the extra DB thing the story, but it really wasn't the big one.

Edited July 9, 2020 by wackywabbit

[Chargers]

On 7/8/2020 at 2:01 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

Why did LAC's 6 or 7 DBs work so well against Lamar's Baltimore in the 2018 WC?

Why has it not worked since, if/when tried?

@Classic @BaltimoreTerp 

BalitmoreTerp said most of what could be said to answer this. Only thing I'll add is that we didn't have the LBs to play with Balitmore because of injuries we were down to our 3rd string and 4th string LBs. 

[Hunter2_1]

17 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Couple of things really:

1.) Most defenses don't have a player as athletic/versatile/intelligent as Derwin James. It's easier to put a lot of DB's on the field when some of those DB's fly around the field and tackle like LB's. 

2.) The Chargers picked up in film study that our offensive linemen were tipping plays with their stance. They knew before every play whether it was a run or pass, which probably played as big a role in stopping us as any scheme did. That got corrected in the offseason obviously. 

3.) That approach also worked because it was the first time we had seen it and weren't prepared. You only get the element of surprise once. But the way our offense was built in 2019 - heavy use of multiple TE's and a fullback - makes it difficult to fully commit to just spamming DB's on the field - teams got run over when they tried it, and they had to be responsive to our personnel. As I said before, it comes down partly to who you have - if you have DB's like Derwin James, you can count on those guys in run defense, but most defenses don't have a Derwin James. 

4.) But really the biggest one for me is just that our offense short-circuited that day mostly because Lamar was not nearly as developed and played a terrible game. He made big improvements in his game, particularly as a passer, and in 2019 we had an offense that was actually built around Lamar as opposed to the 2018 offense that was basically put together on the fly midseason after Flacco was benched. The Chargers shut him down because they didn't have to respect him as a passer. Teams that took that same attitude towards him in 2019 quickly learned that he could beat you with his arm too. 

I think the principles of what LA did that day still holds true in terms of what can work best against Lamar, but it's not really rocket science and it's not even something that is specific to just Lamar: If you have smart, athletic defenders who play their assignments and tackle well, you're going to have more success as a defense. LA had that. Tennessee was able to do some things against us in a similar way because they have an outstanding safety duo and were able to throw out some looks that we hadn't prepared for just like LA had done a year earlier. The other defenses arguably that gave us the most trouble - Pittsburgh, Buffalo, San Francisco - were all elite units with plus athleticism and versatility. Doesn't mean any of them have the 'blueprint' for stopping Lamar that people keep hoping will magically appear, but having better players is ultimately the best way to try and limit any good offense. 

Thanks BT, like your stuff. Point 2 is interesting, will have to rewatch again. 

Having watched the game the other day, I thought of 2 things before I asked you - the first relates to your point 3; the 2019 heavy TE formations appeared to be used sparingly, and throughout the game you can hear Romo mention that, whenever they were in heavier sets, that this is what they should do. Suggests it wasn't used enough I guess. And also it seemed that the DBs were able to cover up passing options because Lamar was holding on for so long but this doesn't explain why he couldn't really run much either. I believe the DL also played lights out. Thanks for your response! 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[Hunter2_1]

@wackywabbit yeah, agreed on that. See above. I think the DL were able to rip through far too often, and you often see Lamar trying to spin out of trouble. It looks like a different QB because in 2019 he slithers through that for a 30 yard run

[Hunter2_1]

12 hours ago, NJC33 said:

I still think this is ultimately where the game is headed (Not just against Lamar). 

Guys like Derwin, Adams & Simmons are going to carve out a new role on defense that will make this schematically efficient - and other will follow. It gives a DC a lot of flexibility trying defend these new age offenses that can run or pass out of virtually any look. The key is having versatile chess pieces (Adams/Derwin) who can legitimately play multiple spots effectively, so you aren't vulnerable against the run or rushing the passer. I was pulling for the Jets to sign Logan Ryan because I think his added versatility + GWs creativity would favor this progressive style. 

Perhaps why BB spent his first pick on a project safety with frightening athleticism? Not saying he's anything like a Derwin James, but it was a bit of a head scratch pick for me, but maybe....as you've alluded to....it's BB seeing the grass through the trees again. 

[-Hope-]

9 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Perhaps why BB spent his first pick on a project safety with frightening athleticism? Not saying he's anything like a Derwin James, but it was a bit of a head scratch pick for me, but maybe....as you've alluded to....it's BB seeing the grass through the trees again. 

i think it's interesting that you don't necessarily have the focus on all-world safeties like you did in the polamalu, brian dawkins, ed reed era but they seem to really be increasing in importance as movable pieces to counter the versatility of the modern spread and option offenses that are finally starting to break into the NFL. i think belichick could be on the right track with this one. the combination of kevin byard, kenny vaccaro, and a really versatile big nickel in logan ryan really kicked a titans defense up a notch that really struggled with having no pass rush whatsoever. i think it was the right decision to let ryan walk, but his presumed successor amani hooker will have some big shoes to fill.

[bucsfan333]

 

[Chargers]

12 hours ago, bucsfan333 said:

 

Chandler Jones is the worst trade in Belichick's career. Possibly the whole of Patriots history and yet it still didn't hurt them as far as winning.

[bucsfan333]

6 minutes ago, Classic said:

Chandler Jones is the worst trade in Belichick's career. Possibly the whole of Patriots history and yet it still didn't hurt them as far as winning.

I mean. Their defense has still been pretty good.

Would be a different story if that wasn't the case.

[wackywabbit]

23 minutes ago, bucsfan333 said:

I mean. Their defense has still been pretty good.

Would be a different story if that wasn't the case.

Defensive DVOA for Patriots since trading Chandler Jones before the 2016 season:

2016 - 16th
2017 - 31st
2018 - 16th
2019 - 1st

Net is actually surprisingly average. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by wackywabbit

[11sanchez11]

 

[11sanchez11]

3 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

Defensive DVOA for Patriots since trading Chandler Jones before the 2016 season:

2016 - 16th
2017 - 31st
2018 - 16th
2019 - 1st

Net is actually surprisingly average. 

i saw/heard somewhere they only had a top 10 Ddvoa 1x in Brady's tenure

or something like that, it was a surprisingly low #

[Soko]

4 hours ago, Classic said:

Chandler Jones is the worst trade in Belichick's career. Possibly the whole of Patriots history and yet it still didn't hurt them as far as winning.

Worth mentioning that Chandler Jones wasn’t half the player he is now/has been as a Cardinal. Absolutely a blunder of a trade, and you’d think that Belichick could get the most out of a guy like Jones, but he was a pretty inconsistent player in NE. Suddenly became a lot more consistent in Arizona. 

Curse you, hindsight.

[wackywabbit]

4 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

i saw/heard somewhere they only had a top 10 Ddvoa 1x in Brady's tenure

or something like that, it was a surprisingly low #

It looks like last year was the first time sine 2007!

I think last year kind of made everyone (myself included) forget how much of the load Brady and the offense was carrying for the last decade+. 

[Hunter2_1]

We did win the superbowl the year we traded Jones, so whilst he's an elite player, we can't really be mad at the trade due to outcome since. Was inconsistent with us as well, tbf to Bill.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Hunter2_1