Jaime Collins' Ejection - Valid or not?

[ET80]

1 hour ago, Jotun_Fan said:

I should clarify.  I don't think he torpedoed him...contact was weak... but if you were the referee and you suddenly see Jamie Collins lowering his head toward your body what are you thinking?  I'm probably thinking "what the" and flinching.  That's not usually how you begin an interaction with someone, let alone a ref, and I think Collins just didn't have the spatial awareness to avoid the ref.

And this is fine - but as the ref, you should be able to read your own reaction and not throw a flag for contact that you initiated by your actions.

This "if Jamie kept going" or "if the ref stood still" shouldn't matter, because the ref moved and the ref made contact - which is FINE, I don't think Jamie Collins cares if a ref touches him. 

It's throwing the flag that makes this a "huh" moment.

[Jotun_Fan]

41 minutes ago, ET80 said:

And this is fine - but as the ref, you should be able to read your own reaction and not throw a flag for contact that you initiated by your actions.

This "if Jamie kept going" or "if the ref stood still" shouldn't matter, because the ref moved and the ref made contact - which is FINE, I don't think Jamie Collins cares if a ref touches him. 

It's throwing the flag that makes this a "huh" moment.

How would you describe the movement the ref made to initiate contact?  Would you agree that he turned his right shoulder inward?  

[ET80]

17 minutes ago, Jotun_Fan said:

How would you describe the movement the ref made to initiate contact?  Would you agree that he turned his right shoulder inward?  

I dunno WHAT to describe it as. That's why I said this:

On 9/14/2020 at 6:31 AM, ET80 said:

The hell was that ref doing?

If I had to define it, it was something a soccer player was doing to draw a red card. Very overdramatic, to make it seem like something was worse than it actually was. 

[Jotun_Fan]

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I dunno WHAT to describe it as. That's why I said this:

If I had to define it, it was something a soccer player was doing to draw a red card. Very overdramatic, to make it seem like something was worse than it actually was. 

So you are 100% certain that the movement was initiated by the referee and NOT Collins, yet you are unable to describe what exactly he did to initiate contact?

[ET80]

38 minutes ago, Jotun_Fan said:

So you are 100% certain that the movement was initiated by the referee and NOT Collins, yet you are unable to describe what exactly he did to initiate contact?

I described it:

46 minutes ago, ET80 said:

If I had to define it, it was something a soccer player was doing to draw a red card. Very overdramatic, to make it seem like something was worse than it actually was. 

In a word: It was a flop.

[Jotun_Fan]

I had to watch the OP's clip like 15 times to try and see how people were claiming the ref initiated contact.  The only movement from the ref (from that angle) I could see was this:

7 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

The last angle clearly shows the ref moving his right shoulder into Collins.

This is also the only description I've seen in any detail of how the ref "initiated contact."  However, I think the first angle in the clip I pasted shows that's not really what happens.  

The best I can tell... this is right about the moment of contact.  The reason I think that was that the ref went up on his toes before he got hit, and right around this instant his left foot moves back in what I would call unnatural unless acted upon by an outside force.  To me from this angle it looks like Collins's helmet is not making contact with the referees right shoulder, it looks more like it's hitting his left shoulder or midsection.  I think the next angle rules out impact on the left shoulder as it seems pretty clear the helmet never touches the refs left shoulder.  Piecing together from all the angles what it appears to me happened was that Collins lowers his head more on the referees left side, the referee twists to avoid it and then Collins moves his head just barely from his right to left (refs left to right) into the refs sternum.  I almost think that Collins actually DID mean to demonstrate on the ref with a weird movement of his head, albeit very gently.  I wonder if that's why the refs reaction looks so weird. 

And THAT, is one magic loogie.

PS: Is this the same ref that ejected Earl Thomas for giving him a hug?  If so at least he's being consistent.

[RedGold]

This thread is as cringe worthy/humorous as 99% of Facebook posts. 

[MookieMonstah]

2 hours ago, Jotun_Fan said:

I had to watch the OP's clip like 15 times to try and see how people were claiming the ref initiated contact.  The only movement from the ref (from that angle) I could see was this:

This is also the only description I've seen in any detail of how the ref "initiated contact."  However, I think the first angle in the clip I pasted shows that's not really what happens.  

The best I can tell... this is right about the moment of contact.  The reason I think that was that the ref went up on his toes before he got hit, and right around this instant his left foot moves back in what I would call unnatural unless acted upon by an outside force.  To me from this angle it looks like Collins's helmet is not making contact with the referees right shoulder, it looks more like it's hitting his left shoulder or midsection.  I think the next angle rules out impact on the left shoulder as it seems pretty clear the helmet never touches the refs left shoulder.  Piecing together from all the angles what it appears to me happened was that Collins lowers his head more on the referees left side, the referee twists to avoid it and then Collins moves his head just barely from his right to left (refs left to right) into the refs sternum.  I almost think that Collins actually DID mean to demonstrate on the ref with a weird movement of his head, albeit very gently.  I wonder if that's why the refs reaction looks so weird. 

And THAT, is one magic loogie.

PS: Is this the same ref that ejected Earl Thomas for giving him a hug?  If so at least he's being consistent.

So you choose the angle where we can’t see his chest to determine he made contact and not the angle we can CLEARLY see the ref initiate the contact?

 

lol

[Jotun_Fan]

13 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

So you choose the angle where we can’t see his chest to determine he made contact and not the angle we can CLEARLY see the ref initiate the contact?

 

lol

I'm assuming that the bolded means "determine that Collins initiated contact and not the referee" and no that's not what I did.  I'm trying to piece together what happened from each of the three clips.  From that angle all I'm trying to determine was 1) when contact was made and 2) where was Collins helmet in relation to the refs body.  Do you disagree that the pic above is close to the moment of impact?  If not, do you disagree that it appears that the refs right shoulder does not appear close enough to have made contact with Collins's helmet?  If you do disagree with those statements then we're at an impasse if we weren't at one already.  You stated that the ref threw his right shoulder into Collins, but it doesn't seem possible from this angle.  Unless you now agree with what I wrote and retract your earlier statement, but now think that the ref somehow moved in a different way to initiate contact? 

I mean I'm all for seeing some of you guys put some description of what exactly the referee did to initiate contact but all I'm getting are responses like "watch the video" or "he flopped."  Your response was one of two that actually described a specific thing that the ref did (someone else said chest bump but I really don't see that from any angle.)  There's one angle where it maybe appears the ref turns his right shoulder into him but watching that same angle it looks as if Collins is also turning his helmet into the ref.  And just thinking about some of the suggestions are head scratchers.  The ref both bumped into Collins to initiate contact and in the same motion flew backward to sell the contact.  Instead of "player of sport known for concussions does something stupid" we get "ref is trying to sell it so it looks like a penalty."

[MookieMonstah]

1 hour ago, Jotun_Fan said:

I'm assuming that the bolded means "determine that Collins initiated contact and not the referee" and no that's not what I did.  I'm trying to piece together what happened from each of the three clips.  From that angle all I'm trying to determine was 1) when contact was made and 2) where was Collins helmet in relation to the refs body.  Do you disagree that the pic above is close to the moment of impact?  If not, do you disagree that it appears that the refs right shoulder does not appear close enough to have made contact with Collins's helmet?  If you do disagree with those statements then we're at an impasse if we weren't at one already.  You stated that the ref threw his right shoulder into Collins, but it doesn't seem possible from this angle.  Unless you now agree with what I wrote and retract your earlier statement, but now think that the ref somehow moved in a different way to initiate contact? 

I mean I'm all for seeing some of you guys put some description of what exactly the referee did to initiate contact but all I'm getting are responses like "watch the video" or "he flopped."  Your response was one of two that actually described a specific thing that the ref did (someone else said chest bump but I really don't see that from any angle.)  There's one angle where it maybe appears the ref turns his right shoulder into him but watching that same angle it looks as if Collins is also turning his helmet into the ref.  And just thinking about some of the suggestions are head scratchers.  The ref both bumped into Collins to initiate contact and in the same motion flew backward to sell the contact.  Instead of "player of sport known for concussions does something stupid" we get "ref is trying to sell it so it looks like a penalty."

Bro. In the third clip of the video you posted the ref CLEARLY turns his right shoulder and initiates the contact with Collins helmet. I don’t know what else to say. It’s clear as day.

[burlow]

Do not make contact with the ref, its that simple.  You can argue if the ref moves 1 inch and initiated contact, but what would the result of that argument matter?  That is an ejection and a warranted ejection by the rules.  

Collins is 100% in control of his body, is aware of the position of the ref.  He then used poor judgement and earned the reward of that poor judgement by being ejected from the game and giving the other team a free 15 yards.

 

Why do people expect the refs not to enforce the rules and let players be idiots on the field?

[Coffee & Contemplation]

46 minutes ago, burlow said:

Why do people expect the refs not to enforce the rules

Their own precedent.

[Louis Friend]

56 minutes ago, burlow said:

Why do people expect the refs not to enforce the rules?

By all means, enforce the rules. Don't go creating your own. Collins did not violate the rule. It really is that simple. 

[incognito_man]

59 minutes ago, burlow said:

You can argue if the ref moves 1 inch and initiated contact, but what would the result of that argument matter? 

Because then you could argue a ref taking a full 100 yd sprint and plowing into a player who is stationary is also worthy of ejection of the player.

This is binary. Either the player initiates unnecessary contact (defined earlier in the thread) or he doesn't. Distance is irrelevant. In this case Collins CLEARLY does not initiate unnecessary contact as defined by the NFL rule book. It's really that simple.

It was a botched call, but the league never admits it, so we must rely on our own eyes and sense of logic.

[burlow]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

Because then you could argue a ref taking a full 100 yd sprint and plowing into a player who is stationary is also worthy of ejection of the player.

This is binary. Either the player initiates unnecessary contact (defined earlier in the thread) or he doesn't. Distance is irrelevant. In this case Collins CLEARLY does not initiate unnecessary contact as defined by the NFL rule book. It's really that simple.

It was a botched call, but the league never admits it, so we must rely on our own eyes and sense of logic.

how was the contact he made necessary?  Not a botched call, just a idiot getting thrown for doing dumb thing.  There are much worse ejections for contact with officials than this one, most of the ejections the ref is making contact with a player and the player is unaware contact is made by a ref and brushes the hands off.  15 yards and an ejection.  This situation the player is aware of the location of the ref and puts his helmet right up against the chest of the ref.  If you argue that he was an inch off contact... collins still was in complete control of the situation that ended up with his ejection.  or do you not agree?  I would love to hear your opinion on how Collins was not in control of himself which lead to his ejection.