big_palooka Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 2 hours ago, drfrey13 said: Problem #1 is the development of o-line. Parham has shown promise but also has issues. He can develop into a really good guard but that will be 2024 at the earliest. Munford has played good for a 7th round pick but that is a pretty low bar. If he becomes average it is a win but that is also going to take another year or 2. If we want to immediately upgrade the o-line we need to use high draft picks or spend a large percentage of our remaining cap. If we stay with what we have I think the ceiling for this line is to be average in 2024.  Bolster the Oline with a vet piece. Don't have to break the bank here. Year 2 for guys like Parham/Munford should should give them a nice step up. 2 hours ago, drfrey13 said: Problem #2 defensive draft pick, especially iDL, take time to develop. DTs are pretty much garbage year 1. Best case scenario is we get production from a highly drafted DT in 2024. Agree here. Which is why you have to go all in on Payne. Young, proven and would have immediate impact they need. Hargrave is another option. Giants have an out on Leo Williams after this season who could come available. Early round draft picks, I'd like to see used on the BPA at LB, DB or Edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 46 minutes ago, big_palooka said: Bolster the Oline with a vet piece. Don't have to break the bank here. Year 2 for guys like Parham/Munford should should give them a nice step up. Agree here. Which is why you have to go all in on Payne. Young, proven and would have immediate impact they need. Hargrave is another option. Giants have an out on Leo Williams after this season who could come available. Early round draft picks, I'd like to see used on the BPA at LB, DB or Edge. I think we should go after a vet and use some draft capital here but how much would depend on value. If Payne and Hargrave both hit the open market I would do everything I could to get 1 if not both. Use an early pick on a top LB and still draft another DT. Crosby - Payne - Hargrave - Jones Like it or not we are stuck with Jones but he would literally have to fall asleep on the field to not produce with those guys around him. That would be a very expensive line but could transform our entire defense. LBers would be running free and DBs would need to cover for about 3 seconds. CB #2 would be an issue but we could trade back in the 1st if we do not want a top QB or OT and grab a LB in the 15-25 range. Then take a CB with the extra 2nd. Could easily get a nice package of picks if we are drafting in the 5-6 range. #5 for #20, 2nd round pick, and a 2023 1st. This would only happen if a QB like Levi was there and a team wanted to move up for him like the Seahawks (10), Bears (12), Colts (15), Commanders (18), or Falcons (19). A few things would have to fall our way and if we moved back to 10 we would not get as many picks. This is a good year to be in a place to take the #3 QB. With our luck though McDaniels will go all in on Orland Brown, draft a receiver or G in the 1st, and ignore the wholes on defense so he has someone to blame when his offense cannot outscore everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 5 hours ago, drfrey13 said: Problem #1 is the development of o-line. Parham has shown promise but also has issues. He can develop into a really good guard but that will be 2024 at the earliest. Munford has played good for a 7th round pick but that is a pretty low bar. If he becomes average it is a win but that is also going to take another year or 2. If we want to immediately upgrade the o-line we need to use high draft picks or spend a large percentage of our remaining cap. If we stay with what we have I think the ceiling for this line is to be average in 2024.  Problem #2 defensive draft pick, especially iDL, take time to develop. DTs are pretty much garbage year 1. Best case scenario is we get production from a highly drafted DT in 2024. After we spent all of our cap space this year and traded away our high draft picks I said the only way this team improves is going to come down to coaching. That was assuming the team would play at a boarder line playoff level. No need to argue why the team is playing awful but if we can become a borderline playoff team next year that is a win. If we are lucky and FA and the draft go our way at the same time we do a good job of developing as a team we could become a top 10 team. We will not however be a contender in this time period and that is with everything going our way the next 2 off-season's. My plan was to mitigate risk and strike at an opportune time. What we have down is blowing up in our faces so far and it was a foreseeable outcome. If we let Carr walk then what was the point of everything else? That would take the front office swallowing their pride and admitting a huge mistake. If anything I see Graham getting canned and being made the excuse. Trading Waller and/or Renfrow probably does not happen. They are getting paid like major contributors and their play does not justify it. Both carry large cap hits next year and a team would need incentive to take on the contract. @big_palooka is right about the 3 year window but what you are saying blows that up after year 1. They would be seen as a huge failure. For them to retain their jobs they would have to prove they can improve in year 2 no matter who they bring in or get rid of. The point of this season was to see if Carr can be an elite QB with weapons for this year.  If he did, they’ll keep him on for a good upper tier contract. If not, let him walk or trade and find a Talent Rich draft QB to replace him long term Adams would make life easier on a 1st prospect. Or send him back to GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 1 hour ago, bucksavage1 said: The point of this season was to see if Carr can be an elite QB with weapons for this year.  If he did, they’ll keep him on for a good upper tier contract. If not, let him walk or trade and find a Talent Rich draft QB to replace him long term Adams would make life easier on a 1st prospect. Or send him back to GB I would disagree that they wanted to see if Carr was a long term solution. No point in giving him this contract along with Waller and Renfrow. Everyone was under contract and and you gain nothing from extending them if you want to see if they are good enough. Why rush to get Adams if you are just waiting to see if he is good enough. If he is not then we just cut him, draft a QB, and let everyone else's contracts expire while the new QB develops? Even if we get a player of the level of Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, and Hurts the chances they are producing in year 2 is still 50%. Maybe we get a Herbert but even then we have not addressed the defense properly until year 3. I believe we are better long term without Carr but I do not think McDaniels shelf life is long enough to change direction if they get rid of him. Wish we would have not traded for Adams or resigned anyone besides Crosby. I would have also traded Waller. Would be going into next year with a ton of cap space and more young cheap talent. Let's just say by some miracle we are able to cut or trade people not living up to their contracts. Best case scenario is we have $91 million in cap space and add $24 million in dead cap. Now that sounds good but we would then need to replace Carr, Waller, Renfrow, and Chandler. Now that would not be cheap and good luck finding that quality in the draft that can produce within 2 years. Now you could do a combination but even then so much would have to go right and you would have to hit on so many draft picks. If I am McDaniels the risk of changing direction is greater than the risk of building around Carr. Now this is not best for the team in my opinion but you have to view it from McDaniels and Zeigler's perspective which is you need some success within 3 years. If they can not top 2021, win a playoff game, in that time period they are gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: I would disagree that they wanted to see if Carr was a long term solution. No point in giving him this contract along with Waller and Renfrow. Everyone was under contract and and you gain nothing from extending them if you want to see if they are good enough. Why rush to get Adams if you are just waiting to see if he is good enough. If he is not then we just cut him, draft a QB, and let everyone else's contracts expire while the new QB develops? Even if we get a player of the level of Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, and Hurts the chances they are producing in year 2 is still 50%. Maybe we get a Herbert but even then we have not addressed the defense properly until year 3. I believe we are better long term without Carr but I do not think McDaniels shelf life is long enough to change direction if they get rid of him. Wish we would have not traded for Adams or resigned anyone besides Crosby. I would have also traded Waller. Would be going into next year with a ton of cap space and more young cheap talent. Let's just say by some miracle we are able to cut or trade people not living up to their contracts. Best case scenario is we have $91 million in cap space and add $24 million in dead cap. Now that sounds good but we would then need to replace Carr, Waller, Renfrow, and Chandler. Now that would not be cheap and good luck finding that quality in the draft that can produce within 2 years. Now you could do a combination but even then so much would have to go right and you would have to hit on so many draft picks. If I am McDaniels the risk of changing direction is greater than the risk of building around Carr. Now this is not best for the team in my opinion but you have to view it from McDaniels and Zeigler's perspective which is you need some success within 3 years. If they can not top 2021, win a playoff game, in that time period they are gone. ^ you get what I've been saying this whole time. it's not simply that it's not a rebuild; it's that it can't be a rebuild for the reasons you just explained. If it's a rebuild nothing makes sense that was done this off-season. Edited November 5, 2022 by Jeremy408 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, drfrey13 said: I would disagree that they wanted to see if Carr was a long term solution. No point in giving him this contract along with Waller and Renfrow. Everyone was under contract and and you gain nothing from extending them if you want to see if they are good enough. Why rush to get Adams if you are just waiting to see if he is good enough. If he is not then we just cut him, draft a QB, and let everyone else's contracts expire while the new QB develops? Even if we get a player of the level of Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, and Hurts the chances they are producing in year 2 is still 50%. Maybe we get a Herbert but even then we have not addressed the defense properly until year 3. I believe we are better long term without Carr but I do not think McDaniels shelf life is long enough to change direction if they get rid of him. Wish we would have not traded for Adams or resigned anyone besides Crosby. I would have also traded Waller. Would be going into next year with a ton of cap space and more young cheap talent. Let's just say by some miracle we are able to cut or trade people not living up to their contracts. Best case scenario is we have $91 million in cap space and add $24 million in dead cap. Now that sounds good but we would then need to replace Carr, Waller, Renfrow, and Chandler. Now that would not be cheap and good luck finding that quality in the draft that can produce within 2 years. Now you could do a combination but even then so much would have to go right and you would have to hit on so many draft picks. If I am McDaniels the risk of changing direction is greater than the risk of building around Carr. Now this is not best for the team in my opinion but you have to view it from McDaniels and Zeigler's perspective which is you need some success within 3 years. If they can not top 2021, win a playoff game, in that time period they are gone. There’s a team option opt out clause before the SB this season on Carr contract. If they had plans for 3 years then why put that in the contract. Carr is basically a lame duck QB and he knows it. Why get the Adams trade? Why not add one of the top talents at WR? Add in playing one year with his college QB to sweeten the deal  A strong run game, bolstered OL with experience pass catchers would put a young QB in the best position to succeed.  Why not try to hit a homer with a QB? All draft picks are a crap shot anyway  . Edited November 5, 2022 by bucksavage1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: There’s a team option opt out clause before the SB this season on Carr contract. If they had plans for 3 years then why put that in the contract. Carr is basically a lame duck QB and he knows it. Why get the Adams trade? Why not add one of the top talents at WR? Add in playing one year with his college QB to sweeten the deal  A strong run game, bolstered OL with experience pass catchers would put a young QB in the best position to succeed.  Why not try to hit a homer with a QB? All draft picks are a crap shot anyway  . So you are saying we should cut Carr and role with Stidham and a rookie? I am fine taking chances but a coach and GM with their jobs on the line if it does work out will probably try to take the safer route. It is possible that they do it but I would say it is more likely we keep him and just fire Graham as the excuse. I can argue and see both ways of doing it. I just think it is more likely that we keep Carr. If they let him go it is going to get wild in here. I might just have to make some popcorn and referee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: So you are saying we should cut Carr and role with Stidham and a rookie? I am fine taking chances but a coach and GM with their jobs on the line if it does work out will probably try to take the safer route. It is possible that they do it but I would say it is more likely we keep him and just fire Graham as the excuse. I can argue and see both ways of doing it. I just think it is more likely that we keep Carr. If they let him go it is going to get wild in here. I might just have to make some popcorn and referee. The way his contract is structured, yes we should cut it trade him. We need to use that space to bolster the roster  Carr is not the QB for a coaches/GMs jobs to trust their jobs on by just judging by history of 9 seasons. I think They would rather go with a QB Stidham who’s been in the offense several seasons and a potential superstar QB. We land a superstar we have a chance to win it all Edited November 5, 2022 by bucksavage1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 5 hours ago, bucksavage1 said: The way his contract is structured, yes we should cut it trade him. We need to use that space to bolster the roster  Carr is not the QB for a coaches/GMs jobs to trust their jobs on by just judging by history of 9 seasons. I think They would rather go with a QB Stidham who’s been in the offense several seasons and a potential superstar QB. We land a superstar we have a chance to win it all You are making to much out of the contract. They can and likely will restructure it, move money around to clear cap and Carr is their QB through 2024. Their 3 year vision is around the veteran QB. They may draft a QB behind him, I fully expect that. Unless Carr completely flames out the back half of the season, he's their guy. He's always been a little slow learning a new offense. We're waiting to see it click for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 3 hours ago, big_palooka said: You are making to much out of the contract. They can and likely will restructure it, move money around to clear cap and Carr is their QB through 2024. Their 3 year vision is around the veteran QB. They may draft a QB behind him, I fully expect that. Unless Carr completely flames out the back half of the season, he's their guy. He's always been a little slow learning a new offense. We're waiting to see it click for him. How are you coming to the conclusion that Carr has earned a starting job until 2024?  I find it very hard to believe that this administration would hitch their jobs to a limited QB who has been so inconsistent. There’s other veterans that will be available and they’ll want to bring in their guy  Another poor performance by Carr and Stidham will start this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, bucksavage1 said: There’s a team option opt out clause before the SB this season on Carr contract. If they had plans for 3 years then why put that in the contract. Carr is basically a lame duck QB and he knows it. Why get the Adams trade? Why not add one of the top talents at WR? Add in playing one year with his college QB to sweeten the deal  A strong run game, bolstered OL with experience pass catchers would put a young QB in the best position to succeed.  Why not try to hit a homer with a QB? All draft picks are a crap shot anyway  . I think if it's a rebuild & we are picking in the top 10  you have to draft a quarterback this time Edited November 5, 2022 by Jeremy408 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 40 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: I think if it's a rebuild & we are picking in the top 10  you have to draft a quarterback this time We need to narrow down a QB prospect we like and draft him. Regardless if it is considered a rebuild 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said: We need to narrow down a QB prospect we like and draft him. Regardless if it is considered a rebuild Yeah but may be a prospect that we like is not within our reach. So that becomes a problem especially if we have to sacrifice a bunch of draft picks for someone we don't know what's going to pan out. If it's a rebuild it makes more sense because we can spend the next couple of years drafting players around him rather than The tray Lance problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: Yeah but may be a prospect that we like is not within our reach. So that becomes a problem especially if we have to sacrifice a bunch of draft picks for someone we don't know what's going to pan out. If it's a rebuild it makes more sense because we can spend the next couple of years drafting players around him rather than The tray Lance problem There’s different scenarios for trading up for a QB. KC traded up for Mahomes and worked out fine. The draft is a crap shoot. Find a guy and go get him. Better than losing with a QB like Carr that we know what we are gonna get from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 1 hour ago, bucksavage1 said: There’s different scenarios for trading up for a QB. KC traded up for Mahomes and worked out fine. The draft is a crap shoot. Find a guy and go get him. Better than losing with a QB like Carr that we know what we are gonna get from Yeah but they were already a perennial playoff team that didn't actually need him to play. We don't even know if the coach is actually good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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