Week 9 GDT - Broncos @ Falcons

[7DnBrnc53]

20 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Lock may bust out completely, not even be backup-caliber worthy - because his processing / decision-making won't make him a good backup if it's not better.   But if it is better, he has the physical tools to be a quality NFL starter, even top 6-10 range.    

Honestly, I was shocked when Elway drafted Lock in Round 2. I didn't see him being the answer.

[Dbrog24]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Lock may bust out completely, not even be backup-caliber worthy - because his processing / decision-making won't make him a good backup if it's not better.   But if it is better, he has the physical tools to be a quality NFL starter, even top 6-10 range.    

It's frustrating as hell, but there is only 1 guy on the roster who has the tools you need to succeed as a NFL starting QB, and it's Drew Lock.    Rypien has the safer floor, but his ceiling prevents him from being a serious starter candidate.   Sadly that's the problem - you can't coach up tool limitations. 

As @jolly red giant  said - if you could put Rypien (or Siemian's) processing skills with Lock's physical tools - you'd have a helluva QB.    But you can't overcome physical limitations if you are looking for your future franchise QB.  

 

Completely agree with these things. I'm just sad that Lock has looked like this especially seeing the stats that I posted. I mean literally a normal game for him is Rypien's floor. I don't doubt that Rypien would be Siemian and again, what I'm saying is neither of these guys are the guy. I don't see a serious scenario where Lock would ever be in the top10 in the NFL at any point. Not when you have Herbert, Burrow, Murray, and now possibly Tua all being better than him. These guys aren't even close to being household names and the guys that are, aren't leaving the top10 until they retire. Just looks bleak and I'm sad

[broncosfan_101]

7 hours ago, French Fan said:

Lock perform well enough with all injuries. I am more concern with Jeudy drops than lock vision. Jeudy was supposed the best WR in this draft with explosiveness and after 8 games no play more than 40 yds. He is behind lamb , Jefferson.....

Lamb and Jefferson are both WR2 and have seen substantially better QB play. 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Honestly, I was shocked when Elway drafted Lock in Round 2. I didn't see him being the answer.

You know my feelings on Lock, I felt the same way - but honestly, the fact that we drafted someone else Rd1 and Risner Rd2 (and we moved down and used that capital to move back up), I didn't object to the price.    I will also say that Lock's play last season was way better than I would have ever expected.   It's very true as @lomaxgrUK points out that he doesn't have great pocket feel - but his ability to sense pressure and move away was still miles ahead of what we saw in Missouri.    His internal clock is still way better than advertised.   What's alarming is that he's not making the quick "easy" read - and maybe that's on the scheme (because Scangarelli's WCO certainly made it easy for Lock to figure it out).  The bad footwork with pressure was something we all knew he'd have to address (so far he hasn't, and that's led to a large part of the intermediate-deep issues with accuracy IMO).

I do agree with the point made that making Lock a pure drop back passer this year first & foremost is a bad idea.   Ryan Tannehill was year in and year out the best passer on the run - and Gase was too stubborn to leverage that.   TEN doesn't do it as much now because Tanny's skills have progressed - but that was a skill to exploit.    I wish we'd find a way to do that here.  I also wish we'd throw on first from under center - so teams would be guessing more, and I wish we'd run from spread formation more than just telegraph 12 formation and then run.  Sigh.

Still, we have to remember it's only 11 games into Lock's career.  So we could see progress in the next 8 games that changes our thinking.    It's happened before.  It would be just helpful to see those signs soon, the complete lack of progress in his weaknesses since returning is what's discouraging.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Broncofan

[AKRNA]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

It's the Jets D.   Honestly this is a biased homer take.  Rypien is not a NFL caliber talent physically.  And it's not just the Jets game - we've seen it in preseason last year (and while preseason success should be taken with a grain of salt, when you see limitations / struggles appear against weaker competition, those do matter).   The best these guys end up are as backup.   Best-case.    It's Siemien all over again.   Now, there's nothing wrong with that when you are paying the rookie contract, it's a fantastic result.  But it's also a complete mirage in terms of franchise building.

Lock may bust out completely, not even be backup-caliber worthy - because his processing / decision-making won't make him a good backup if it's not better.   But if it is better, he has the physical tools to be a quality NFL starter, even top 6-10 range.    

It's frustrating as hell, but there is only 1 guy on the roster who has the tools you need to succeed as a NFL starting QB, and it's Drew Lock.    Rypien has the safer floor, but his ceiling prevents him from being a serious starter candidate.   Sadly that's the problem - you can't coach up tool limitations. 

As @jolly red giant  said - if you could put Rypien (or Siemian's) processing skills with Lock's physical tools - you'd have a helluva QB.    But you can't overcome physical limitations if you are looking for your future franchise QB.  

 

I hope you realize that Joe Montana disagrees with you.

[Broncofan]

Just now, AKRNA said:

I hope you realize that Joe Montana disagrees with you.

And the other 999+ guys who've had the same profile since Montana played side with me.   I think I'll take the odds there.

[AkronsWitness]

3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

This is part of the classic thinking that has been demonstrated to be a complete fail on traditional coaching.    I have NO problem with running on 2nd and long - if it's because you're mixing it up, and being unpredictable.   In the 1H, I think we're literally running on 2nd and long well over 2/3 of the time.   Maybe it's just frustration making us remember those times (LOL).  

I'm not saying don't run the ball - but stop telegraphing our sequences.   Run from spread formation.   Pass from under center.      Run on 2nd and long a few times, but also pass more on 1st down so you get positive plays to start a drive, and then you can run on 2nd and 5 or less.      BE UNPREDICTABLE.   Instead, we are as vanilla as humanly possible.   And with the weapons we have in the pass O (now less with Albert O out), it's just inexcusable.

What I do have a problem with is 15 running plays compared to 55 passing plays last game lol 

Heres my thing, I am not 100% sold on Lock but hes the type of guy who does enough once or twice per game with a throw that makes you beleive hes the future, then does 10 other things that make you scratch your head. Hes like my golf game. I keep coming back every Saturday because of those 1 or 2 beautiful shots per round depsite the custer**** that the rest of the round is.

We need to figure out if the mistakes Lock is making are fixable or not and what the timeline is to get them fixed. I saw on the Athletic where some a writer asked 4-5 film 'expert' guys what they thought of Jeudy and they all said the same thing. The said if Lock didnt suck, Jeudy would be a monster because he is literally open on every play--Lock just doesnt see him, look his way or misses the throw.

[grizmo78]

11 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

What I do have a problem with is 15 running plays compared to 55 passing plays last game lol 

Heres my thing, I am not 100% sold on Lock but hes the type of guy who does enough once or twice per game with a throw that makes you beleive hes the future, then does 10 other things that make you scratch your head. Hes like my golf game. I keep coming back every Saturday because of those 1 or 2 beautiful shots per round depsite the custer**** that the rest of the round is.

We need to figure out if the mistakes Lock is making are fixable or not and what the timeline is to get them fixed. I saw on the Athletic where some a writer asked 4-5 film 'expert' guys what they thought of Jeudy and they all said the same thing. The said if Lock didnt suck, Jeudy would be a monster because he is literally open on every play--Lock just doesnt see him, look his way or misses the throw.

My biggest gripe with Jeudy is his hands. He constantly bobbles catches or flat out drops them. He has fumbled twice already and lucked out that they've gone out of bounds. I'm encouraged that his route running is as advertised, his speed is fast enough, but he needs to get stronger all around, especially his hands. That said, I don't question his desire to improve or desire to play football at a high level so i'll reserve saying he has bad hands until end of next year where he has an NFL offseason. Sutton made huge improvements in his catching ability between year 1 and 2, i'm hoping the same from Jeudy. 

I agree with the runs vs passes but given the way this game went, still would have expected more passes. Something like 25 to 45 would have been a better, appropriate balance. But our run game was non existent as well... Wish we would see more screens given how bad our oline has looked... might open everything up.

[AKRNA]

35 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

And the other 999+ guys who've had the same profile since Montana played side with me.   I think I'll take the odds there.

man, thats really going to dissapoint Brees and Brady.

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

What I do have a problem with is 15 running plays compared to 55 passing plays last game lol 

Heres my thing, I am not 100% sold on Lock but hes the type of guy who does enough once or twice per game with a throw that makes you believe he's the future, then does 10 other things that make you scratch your head. Hes like my golf game. I keep coming back every Saturday because of those 1 or 2 beautiful shots per round depsite the custer**** that the rest of the round is.

We need to figure out if the mistakes Lock is making are fixable or not and what the timeline is to get them fixed. I saw on the Athletic where some a writer asked 4-5 film 'expert' guys what they thought of Jeudy and they all said the same thing. The said if Lock didnt suck, Jeudy would be a monster because he is literally open on every play--Lock just doesnt see him, look his way or misses the throw.

I hope he's more than your golf game unless you're a sub 5 handicap lol, but I get the analogy.  

And yes, Jeudy's been absolutely amazing at getting open.  The drops are not a hands issue, so I'm not worried there. 

Jeudy, Fant, Sutton should all eat in 2022 (Sutton needs 18 months to get fully back), and Jeudy/Fant should be dominant in 2021 - if we have the QB.   That's a big IF, obviously (and better OL would help a ton to bring out the best in our QB, but it begins and ends with where we are at QB wise for 2021).

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

man, thats really going to dissapoint Brees and Brady.

Totally different skill types. But OK - Brett Rypien - Montana, Brady & Brees.  Gotcha, good luck with that call.

[AKRNA]

53 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Totally different skill types. But OK - Brett Rypien - Montana, Brady & Brees.  Gotcha, good luck with that call.

The point I'm trying to make to you is that you seem to have a fascination with arm strength. Many football types, including guys like Bill Walsh think arm strength is completley overrated. 

Walsh didn't even have it in his top 5 requirements, he thought it was a luxury. Many HOF QB's had marginal arm strength. I just think you're dismissing Rypien too quickly based on arm strength. From his limited time, what I saw was a kid that got rid of the ball quickly, knew where he was going with it, had decent pocket awareness and poise and good accuracy and timing.

That checks a lot of boxes. 

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

The point I'm trying to make to you is that you seem to have a fascination with arm strength. Many football types, including guys like Bill Walsh think arm strength is completley overrated. 

Walsh didn't even have it in his top 5 requirements, he thought it was a luxury. Many HOF QB's had marginal arm strength. I just think you're dismissing Rypien too quickly based on arm strength. From his limited time, what I saw was a kid that got rid of the ball quickly, knew where he was going with it, had decent pocket awareness and poise and good accuracy and timing.

That checks a lot of boxes. 

Unless the arm strength can't get the ball out.  Montana's anticipation and reading were elite.   We've seen Rypien lack that level in preseason, and vs. the Jets.    I'm not dismissing solely on the arm strength - it's that his other skills don't play up enough.      Montana's makeup was special because his arm was truly below average.  No one would say that about Brady & Brees - so those are terrible examples.   But as I said - for the lone example you provide of Montana (Brees & Brady's arm strength are not below average), it literally is offset by hundreds of guys who have the between-ears component that are their best trait, but the physical limits are too much to overcome.   That's the battle that Rypien faces.  

I'll stick with the analysis that Rypien's ceiling is capped.  You think otherwise.  That's fine, we don't have to agree.  Moving on.

[germ-x]

Here is my stance with Lock and I am someone that liked Lock enough if they’d have taken him at #10 that year I’d have been fine with it.

Lock has shown plenty of flashes.  He has, at worst, above average physical attributes across the board.  Lock has the skill set to be a long time NFL starter and franchise QB.  Too an extent I also like his confident personality.

But.....I think his confidence is part of his lack of production and why fans think he’s good.  Just look at the quote after the Falcon’s game.  He’s trying to play like Mahomes, and he isn’t.  He’s statistically been terrible through 10 or so starts.  He has little feel in the pocket.  He’s had little feel in finding open targets.  He plays backyard football.

Lock plays like a gunslinger, but he also talks like one and his talk is mostly what is carrying him right now.  It continues getting older, every week, the more he loses and the more we all realize he isn’t good. 

[AKRNA]

39 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Unless the arm strength can't get the ball out.  Montana's anticipation and reading were elite.   We've seen Rypien lack that level in preseason, and vs. the Jets.    I'm not dismissing solely on the arm strength - it's that his other skills don't play up enough.      Montana's makeup was special because his arm was truly below average.  No one would say that about Brady & Brees - so those are terrible examples.   But as I said - for the lone example you provide of Montana (Brees & Brady's arm strength are not below average), it literally is offset by hundreds of guys who have the between-ears component that are their best trait, but the physical limits are too much to overcome.   That's the battle that Rypien faces.  

I'll stick with the analysis that Rypien's ceiling is capped.  You think otherwise.  That's fine, we don't have to agree.  Moving on.

Whatever, he can't be worse than Josh Rosen.