2021 Free Agency

[jimkelly02]

3 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Definitely. It can be foggy. But if I can avoid it I stay clear. And the Reed case I didn’t like.

What’s the Read case?  Pardon my ignorance or missing the reference.... it’s midnight and I’ve been working straight since 7am

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

ya, I don't have anymore money to invest for a few weeks. I hate investing on margin. I took a 400 dollar loss last week, just wanted to get out of an investment and margin. all my other investments, just going ride it out. Pissed me off last week, and been trying to make it up somehow. Think I'm going sign up for Verizon instead of ATT because they give you 450 for switching services lol. no phone bill for a few months

The madness with Archegos, Robinhood, and the Fed we could have a very interesting year.  I would avoid margin at all cost right now.  May not be a big deal but this could go down similar to 2008 depending on how over leveraged the system is.

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

What’s the Read case?  Pardon my ignorance or missing the reference.... it’s midnight and I’ve been working straight since 7am

Reed as in Jarran Reed.

As a mod, I'd rather not get too much into the off-field stuff. Take a look at it for yourself, but I'll discontinue this convo here just so we all don't end up breaking any rules.

[drfrey13]

5 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I wasn’t lobbying to bring him in. I also didn’t know the story with Reed. Once I found out I wanted nothing to do with him. I’m sure there are teams that felt the same.

I just do not get why we take a stand against players but not Cable if we really do pass on players just for that reason.  AB was a horrible choice also for many reasons.  If we are okay with AB and Cable I would have been fine with Reed who has stayed out of trouble since the incident that took place 4 years ago.  AB was getting accused of stuff the entire time an showed repeatedly that he was a horrible person.  Cable also had multiple incidents.  If that played into their decision it is BS.  If you are against all of them I completely understand that point of view.

[jimkelly02]

26 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Reed as in Jarran Reed.

As a mod, I'd rather not get too much into the off-field stuff. Take a look at it for yourself, but I'll discontinue this convo here just so we all don't end up breaking any rules.

Gotcha ... my bad didn’t realize it was approaching out of bounds topics... my bad.

[jimkelly02]

It also looks like Reed from reports Reed wanted to go to KC .... and Chris Jones wants to and or will be playing more DE this year.  So even if we didn’t sign Jefferson and Thomas I doubt we would have gotten Reed, even if he didn’t have DV issues, because we weren’t going to substantially pay him more (I’m talking 10M).

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Sure... the more time goes on the worse for the FA but at some point when the talent dries up and you don’t have your CB and FS your prolly going to have to cave to the demands or get nothing and then have to draft for need over talent in the draft.

100%. 

What frustrates so many is how often we wait so long hoping for a steal that we forget guys usually remain available for a reason. And then we overpay 2nd and often 3rd string talent to fill starting roles with no real plan on keeping their overpriced presence around long, so we just repeat that process over and over. 

We watched it happen at LB for like a decade straight. If you're going to the flea market constantly in hopes of finding something other than someone else's junk, you're going to wind up disappointed more often than not. 

Look at FS right now. We've seen the names Tre Boston who signed an extension and then got released again and who can't ever stick anywhere (which is admittedly wild imo), Malik Hooker who has spent almost 1/2 of his career on IR and who's 5th year option was declined despite being a top 15 Draft pick a mere 4 years ago, Earl Thomas who went unsigned for a variety of character reasons and thus hasn't played in over a year, and Haha Clinton-Dix who Dallas canned when he couldn't beat put Jeff Heath's replacement and thus also hasn't played in over a year. 

To my knowledge, no other names have even been brought up despite several of Gus Bradley's former quality players being available at the time or still being available. We either didn't attempt to go after guys or they had no interest, either of which is a problem. And FS was arguably our biggest Achilles heel on D last year.

[oakdb36]

Just putting this here because this is the only report from a "reliable" source of the Raiders' interest in a safety. Everything else has been rumors (and not much really about the safeties) or just fans giving their opinions. Tafur and others have said we're looking at S (obviously) but we don't know who that might be. The S market was great until they all got franchised. The top 2 left on the market (Johnson and Harris) are split safeties and, apparently, we weren't willing to go that high on Jenkins (totally agree with the decision, 8M/Y is too high for him). After that, it's a bunch of guys signing cheap deals. We'll see if they sign one before the draft (they should). Amongst the cheap signings, it's mostly cover2 types (Kazee looks like the only one who could have been a fit). Hooker, Boston, Gipson (Thomas?) are those making sense imo.

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I’m not saying we’re a contender, but I have a lot more optimism than a lot of the board, who is melting down because we signed Willie Snead, didn’t sign a domestic abuser, and haven’t gotten a a veteran in the secondary to accept an offer.

When you say optimism, optimism for what exactly?

I think the feeling among fans is Gruden has to get to the playoffs in 2021. There is absolutely nothing that signals that is a remote possibility currently. The roster has not improved much and one could argue that blowing up the Oline actually sets them backwards. It's Gruden's 4th year, the roster is in complete turnover/rebuild again. 

How's the draft going to change anything? A mid-round rookie isn't going to have much impact this season to that playoff goal. 

The allure and promise of Gruden has worn off. It's clear he has no resemblance of a plan and the playoffs are further away today than they were when he took over Del Rio's roster.

[BackinBlack]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

When you say optimism, optimism for what exactly?

I think the feeling among fans is Gruden has to get to the playoffs in 2021. There is absolutely nothing that signals that is a remote possibility currently. The roster has not improved much and one could argue that blowing up the Oline actually sets them backwards. It's Gruden's 4th year, the roster is in complete turnover/rebuild again. 

How's the draft going to change anything? A mid-round rookie isn't going to have much impact this season to that playoff goal. 

The allure and promise of Gruden has worn off. It's clear he has no resemblance of a plan and the playoffs are further away today than they were when he took over Del Rio's roster.

I agree with the bold. 
But could you then say that our rookies last year didnt add much to our 8-8 record?
And this year will take on bigger roles?

I understand the doom and gloom look. 
But, you dont count on rookies to look good (that is fair)
then say we shouldnt expect players to improve, need to have a plan in place.
Then say you need to build through the draft not FA lol.
-
We have been bringing in a lot of young players, in the first few rounds, but instead of giving them time to develop people are starting to write them off already.
Good teams develop. 
Lets see how Ruggs, Arnette and Edwards look in year two before saying our O is going to go backwards.
We barely used Ruggs and Edwards as rookies, I doubt that will be the case this season

-
We didnt lean on our rookies last season, and hopefully they will improve going into year 2. 
If Ruggs, Edwards, Arnette start seeing more playing time it could be huge.
 

[MrOaktown_56]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

When you say optimism, optimism for what exactly?

I think the feeling among fans is Gruden has to get to the playoffs in 2021. There is absolutely nothing that signals that is a remote possibility currently. The roster has not improved much and one could argue that blowing up the Oline actually sets them backwards. It's Gruden's 4th year, the roster is in complete turnover/rebuild again. 

How's the draft going to change anything? A mid-round rookie isn't going to have much impact this season to that playoff goal. 

The allure and promise of Gruden has worn off. It's clear he has no resemblance of a plan and the playoffs are further away today than they were when he took over Del Rio's roster.

Agree to disagree. I will reassess after the draft but there are a lot of pieces and promising young players on this team. The staff is now in place for them to make a leap. Whether they do is a matter of perspective and where a lot of us differ in terms of opinion.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, BackinBlack said:

I understand the doom and gloom look. 
But, you dont count on rookies to look good (that is fair)
then say we shouldnt expect players to improve, need to have a plan in place.
Then say you need to build through the draft not FA lol.

Let me clarify. If you're counting on a rookie to have a massive impact, you're teams not built right. Currently, a rookie is being looked at as the solution to RT or FS, which signals a bigger problem that they don't current have talent in those spots to start.

Next, yes you build through the draft. The Raiders have failed miserably to do that, which is why the roster hasn't taken form. You should expect players to improve, but they are not suddenly going to turn from C level players to the A level players that make consistent impact to the team.

To summarize. Since Gruden has taken over, he's failed in the draft. As a result, the roster is thin with playmakers and there is an urgency to improve the roster

[BackinBlack]

20 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

To summarize. Since Gruden has taken over, he's failed in the draft. As a result, the roster is thin with playmakers and there is an urgency to improve the roster

Fair enough, and I definitely have been angry with a number of our draft selections at the time. 
but until recent, Kolton Miller was a bust. Now after 3 years people saying it was a good pick. We were not saying that this time last year. 
Point being, it usually takes 3 seasons to judge a draft class. 

To say Gruden has failed the draft since he has been here.
Is giving a draft class 3 years, 2 years and 1 year.

2018 - Miller I hated at time, but looking better. Hall was bad a pick. Mo Hurst is pretty solid for a 5th round pick. Key may be gone, but was about what you expect for a 3rd, punter in round 5 was trash. Brandon Parker in 3rd.

Overall, I dont think I give this draft class an F? Realistically, we drafted a great LT in the middle of 1st. Hurst while not what a lot hoped for, is still great value in the 5th. and Parker and Key are probably above average 3rd round picks?

2019 - Clelin, Jacobs, Abrams, Mullen, Crosby, Moreau, Renfrow
Just complete hyperbole to call this draft class a fail. Im sure you agree it was not even with Cle at 4 it is still a good draft class. 

2020 - not looking the best, after 1 year. Ill give it time. 
-
To summarize, to say Gruden has failed in the draft is not giving enough time for players to develop. Especially when we know Gruden doesnt love rookies. 
 

[MrOaktown_56]

4 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

Fair enough, and I definitely have been angry with a number of our draft selections at the time. 
but until recent, Kolton Miller was a bust. Now after 3 years people saying it was a good pick. We were not saying that this time last year. 
Point being, it usually takes 3 seasons to judge a draft class. 

To say Gruden has failed the draft since he has been here.
Is giving a draft class 3 years, 2 years and 1 year.

2018 - Miller I hated at time, but looking better. Hall was bad a pick. Mo Hurst is pretty solid for a 5th round pick. Key may be gone, but was about what you expect for a 3rd, punter in round 5 was trash. Brandon Parker in 3rd.

Overall, I dont think I give this draft class an F? Realistically, we drafted a great LT in the middle of 1st. Hurst while not what a lot hoped for, is still great value in the 5th. and Parker and Key are probably above average 3rd round picks?

2019 - Clelin, Jacobs, Abrams, Mullen, Crosby, Moreau, Renfrow
Just complete hyperbole to call this draft class a fail. Im sure you agree it was not even with Cle at 4 it is still a good draft class. 

2020 - not looking the best, after 1 year. Ill give it time. 
-
To summarize, to say Gruden has failed in the draft is not giving enough time for players to develop. Especially when we know Gruden doesnt love rookies. 
 

I'm still high on our 2020 class. It just was a bad COVID-hampered year for a lot of them, especially Ruggs and Edwards because rookie receivers need time to develop chemistry/learn gruden's offense. I was sold on Arnette at Ohio State. Guenther barely played press and played him in off where he's not as good. Then he got hurt/concussed and still played with an edge. I'm nowhere near ready to give up on him. Robertson was a real talent in college and getting him with Milus is perfect. I think Milus can also really work with Isaiah Johnson. Lastly, simpson played well in limited time and can only get better with time. 

[big_palooka]

6 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

2018 - Miller I hated at time, but looking better. Hall was bad a pick. Mo Hurst is pretty solid for a 5th round pick. Key may be gone, but was about what you expect for a 3rd, punter in round 5 was trash. Brandon Parker in 3rd.

2019 - Clelin, Jacobs, Abrams, Mullen, Crosby, Moreau, Renfrow
Just complete hyperbole to call this draft class a fail. Im sure you agree it was not even with Cle at 4 it is still a good draft class. 

2020 - not looking the best, after 1 year. Ill give it time. 

2018 - Miller is an average LT, solid frp. Hurst and Key were said to be steals, both having first round potential before falling for specific reasons. Both have disappointed. Hall and Parker were terrible reaches.

2019 - The back end was nice. Ferrell is a role player when they needed impact at 4 overall. Jacobs is good back, but the value sucks for a RB with no overly special qualities in round 1. Abram is a bum and the sooner they move on the better. Nothing about him in college or pro says he can play safety. Complete bum.

Mullen, solid. Backend is great. Renfrow and Crosby role players with great value were they taken. Moreau looks nice, but some overrate him because of his 5TDs as a rookie. Need to see more between the numbers

2020 - No where to go but up. But taking Ruggs over Lamb will always be looked at as a mistake. Double that for Arnette in round 1 (thought I love his tenacity). The rest was a WTF of epic proportions between Bowden and Muse. Worse, Mayock saying they needed to land starters in those rounds. 

When you have as many early round picks as they've had, you're expect to land starting talent. I don't think they've done that.  

Now... I fully admit to being impatient here. I agree that development takes time. But Gruden was hired to get over the hump and 4 years in were still talking about culture changes. So my concern in a nutshell is that Gruden doesn't know how to develop talent and get to impatient with it. See his Tampa years, he's learned nothing.