Defense Discussion [2017]

[Dubz41]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

I like your thought of him as an OLB candidate as well as ILB.  Now you have me interested.  Nice thought!

Ragland would add talent. Plain and simple.  We don't have talent at the position.  We have good, hardworking young players; but Ragland would bring some talent and maybe his nasty attitude would rub off on a few other players.

[skibrett15]

The entire premise of "let's not spend at ILB" is based around not needing fast guys who can cover.  The ILB responsibility is (Dime LB excepted) to smash into the play, defend the run, and be acceptable when asked to drop into zone coverage.

 

Ragland is not Brandon Spikes.  This guy beat out Reuben Foster for the starting job at alabama.  He put some impressive tape out there, and he was drafted high in the 2nd round last year.  He's actually a very good fit for our scheme.

 

Joe Thomas will never be a quality NFL player because he is not a consistent player.  He simply cannot be relied upon.

[CentralFC]

20 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Not trying to be frustrating, but have you ever been on even a high school sideline?

It's impossible to see the offensive players coming onto the field. You have to rely on a coach up in the booth to radio down and give you the opposing personnel. (It takes you longer to process the info because it takes the brain longer to process sound than sight). You then have to get your own personnel groupings on the field. (This is easier on the field because you don't have to radio down to a coach in charge of handling substitutions). But even on a down by down basis, you rely on somebody up in the booth to tell you what happened on a specific play because you can't see it most of the time. 

Watching your own defense from the sideline is very confusing, even if you are good at it.

So what you're saying is we should improve our operation/communication?

 

Quinn was on the sidelines for Seattle during the beginning of its reign.

Patricia mans the Patriots' defense only 25 feet away.

Edwards is a sideline guy in Minnesota.

Lebeau was on Pittsburgh's sideline for damn near two decades.

 

Maybe the communication speed is an issue that's limited to Capers, and not all coordinators. Maybe our "operation," and ability to communicate complex calls in the heat of a game situation, with young, inexperienced players, needs to improve.

 

(and FWIW, I would have said this three or four years ago; using Capers' calls/defense with 3 or 4 young contributors means the margin for error is minimal)

[spilltray]

He's a good fit for the base 3-4.

 

Ryan and Martinez both move better in space than Ragland by far. Beyond just 40 times, he's stiff. I'm going to pause for just one second to LOL at the idea of him as an edge rusher. He has a halfway decent blitz up the inside but he would get MAULED by an OT in a 1 v 1 situation. The fact that Ryan and Martinez already aren't that great in what is REALLY the base defense, the nickle, is why Burnett and Jones get LB reps.

 

If you understand at best you are getting a base package specialist, I'm fine with the idea of trading a WR who is probably not making the roster anyway, or signing him as a FA. I don't think that type of role player is worth any more than that, and even beating out Martinez and Ryan isn't really a given either. The guy just plays way too stiff for me. I don't see him having success in the NFL, but I'm not a fan at all of "thumper" type ILBs to begin with.

 

------break-------

On the discussion of booth vs sidelines, there are pros and cons to each. There really isn't a "right" answer.

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, CentralFC said:

So what you're saying is we should improve our operation/communication?

 

Quinn was on the sidelines for Seattle during the beginning of its reign.

Patricia mans the Patriots' defense only 25 feet away.

Edwards is a sideline guy in Minnesota.

Lebeau was on Pittsburgh's sideline for damn near two decades.

 

Maybe the communication speed is an issue that's limited to Capers, and not all coordinators. Maybe our "operation," and ability to communicate complex calls in the heat of a game situation, with young, inexperienced players, needs to improve.

 

(and FWIW, I would have said this three or four years ago; using Capers' calls/defense with 3 or 4 young contributors means the margin for error is minimal)

Not saying it can't be done. Just that it's harder. It's also a lot easier when you're not running different personnel groups frequently, something that's becoming more common in the league on defenses that don't have jack knife guys.

You saw Lebeau in Pittsburgh struggle with that exact problem in his later years. 

What's the advantage of being on the sideline that mitigates the inherent disadvantages of not being able to see the field clearly?

[Joe]

I'd want my coordinators to be up in the box if I were a HC for that very reason. Communication between coordinators and asst's would be essential after every play. Hell, I'd stick at least an asst. up in the booth just to look for patterns from the other team to help me make adjustments.

 

[CentralFC]

9 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Not saying it can't be done. Just that it's harder. It's also a lot easier when you're not running different personnel groups frequently, something that's becoming more common in the league on defenses that don't have jack knife guys.

You saw Lebeau in Pittsburgh struggle with that exact problem in his later years. 

What's the advantage of being on the sideline that mitigates the inherent disadvantages of not being able to see the field clearly?

I was asking you -- you asked everyone if they had even been on a high school sideline before, so I assumed you'd have a better working knowledge of the advantages/disadvantages.

[HighCalebR]

I don't see any advantages to having Capers down on the field. He's not a ra-ra inspirational type coach, that's what his position coaches are for. Being able to see what package he wants on the field the quickest is the most advantageous to him. We have Mac down there and Winston too. 

The only qualm I have with Capers is his resistance to veer from his gameplan and adjust in-game, and that's not changing with where he's standing during the game.

[fattlipp]

16 hours ago, spilltray said:

He's a good fit for the base 3-4.

 

Ryan and Martinez both move better in space than Ragland by far. Beyond just 40 times, he's stiff. I'm going to pause for just one second to LOL at the idea of him as an edge rusher. He has a halfway decent blitz up the inside but he would get MAULED by an OT in a 1 v 1 situation. The fact that Ryan and Martinez already aren't that great in what is REALLY the base defense, the nickle, is why Burnett and Jones get LB reps.

 

If you understand at best you are getting a base package specialist, I'm fine with the idea of trading a WR who is probably not making the roster anyway, or signing him as a FA. I don't think that type of role player is worth any more than that, and even beating out Martinez and Ryan isn't really a given either. The guy just plays way too stiff for me. I don't see him having success in the NFL, but I'm not a fan at all of "thumper" type ILBs to begin with.

 

------break-------

On the discussion of booth vs sidelines, there are pros and cons to each. There really isn't a "right" answer.

You act like this guy is Abdul Hodge

He was considered a 1st round pick last year and like said earlier stared over Foster at Bama.  He has great instincts and plays fine pass D in Zone. So he comes out on 3rd and long for Jones ro Burnett, hes worth a WR like Allison or Davis and late pick IMO

Hes bigger, stronger, meaner and has better instincts than Blake.

He would be an immediate upgrade over Martinez, and probably Ryan.  Those guys are JAGS , sorry MM.

I think we are going to have a much harder time stopping the run this year without Guion, and will wish we had RR  running through FB's in the hole.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/04/26/ragland-can-cover-nickel-but-well-enough/83550258/

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/alabama-football/film-study-can-alabama-lb-reggie-ragland-get-anymore-freakish/

[Shanedorf]

We talked about OLB Ahmad Brooks back in May, but his contract was considered onerous. Sounds like the 9ers are getting ready to cut him loose. He's a bit older, (33) but potentially still offers some pass rush skills

MM and TT don't care for the "older legs" late in the season, but if you keep his snap counts down, maybe he has something to offer as a veteran role player

[MacReady]

Just now, Shanedorf said:

We talked about OLB Ahmad Brooks back in May, but his contract was considered onerous. Sounds like the 9ers are getting ready to cut him loose. He's a bit older, (33) but potentially still offers some pass rush skills

MM and TT don't care for the "older legs" late in the season, but if you keep his snap counts down, maybe he has something to offer as a veteran role player

I just came here to make a Brooks thread.  I want this so, so, so, so bad.  Because I just know that if we don't sign him, he's going immediately to New England to have 10 sacks and everybody will complain about it next year. 

Thompson, swallow that damn pride and accept the fact that Fackrell is going to do nothing for us this year, and neither will Elliot or Gilbert.  Make it official, move Fackrell where pass rushers go to die (ILB), sign Brooks. 

I would literally be okay with sending the Niners a 5th round pick just to make sure nobody else signs him even though he's not worth a 5th round pick at this point. 

[packfanfb]

2 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I just came here to make a Brooks thread.  I want this so, so, so, so bad.  Because I just know that if we don't sign him, he's going immediately to New England to have 10 sacks and everybody will complain about it next year. 

Thompson, swallow that damn pride and accept the fact that Fackrell is going to do nothing for us this year, and neither will Elliot or Gilbert.  Make it official, move Fackrell where pass rushers go to die (ILB), sign Brooks. 

I would literally be okay with sending the Niners a 5th round pick just to make sure nobody else signs him even though he's not worth a 5th round pick at this point. 

Get in line, but I'll believe it when I see it. TT isn't going to sign a vet at OLB, especially when every single person around him is telling him he needs to. 

It was borderline funny how Matthews made the comment that most of the sacks/pressure this year are going to have to come from him and Perry. Basically said without saying it..."yea we literally have no one else." Even the players know the position is weak. Should have been addressed a loooonnnggg time ago. 

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Get in line, but I'll believe it when I see it. TT isn't going to sign a vet at OLB, especially when every single person around him is telling him he needs to. 

It was borderline funny how Matthews made the comment that most of the sacks/pressure this year are going to have to come from him and Perry. Basically said without saying it..."yea we literally have no one else." Even the players know the position is weak. Should have been addressed a loooonnnggg time ago. 

Where did Matthews say that? 

[packfanfb]

1 minute ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Where did Matthews say that? 

Zach Kruse from PackersWire put out an article where Matthews during a locker room interview said, “Listen, the reality is, the pass rush this year, the majority of the impact we anticipate has got to come from me and Nick (Perry)." 

[skibrett15]

put me on the Ahmad Brooks Wagon.  Also the Dwight Freeney Wagon.