Defense Discussion [2017]

[MacReady]

I said it before this year started, and you can look it up in the archives if you don't believe me, this defense is too soft. 

Matthews I wouldn't call soft, but he's definitely more finesse, which is why I want him not rushing the passer and instead utilizing his playmaking ability.  I dislike Fackrell so much I would literally pull an Ossweiler trade with him.  I would literally give a 7th round pick to somebody to take Fackrell.  He's soft as Fack. 

[TheOnlyThing]

So likely no Ahmad Brooks again Sunday.

Are we really going to go with a banged up Perry (limited on the injury report with a hand & knee), Clay, and Fackrell at OLBer against Drew Brees?

Is it time for Odom to make an appearance?

Biegel time?

[Norm]

1 hour ago, TheOnlyThing said:

So likely no Ahmad Brooks again Sunday.

Are we really going to go with a banged up Perry (limited on the injury report with a hand & knee), Clay, and Fackrell at OLBer against Drew Brees?

Is it time for Odom to make an appearance?

Biegel time?

Odom has been active right? I'm too lazy to check. I remember him screwing up once lol

[Kenrik]

49ers just cut Leon Hall...

 

[SpeightTheVillain]

One thing I've noticed this year is Dom has been playing less aggressive and been forcing teams to dink and dunk down the field. Its as if he figured if they limit big plays, they will win the 20+ yard play barometer weekly by just having Rodgers. I am extremely curious as to what he does with Hundley in the lineup. Will he become more aggressive, trying to force turnovers (more then he already does) or will he be even more conservative?

I feel like this is a seldom talked about potential defensive shift in philosophy. We will see I guess

[incognito_man]

8 minutes ago, SpeightTheVillain said:

One thing I've noticed this year is Dom has been playing less aggressive and been forcing teams to dink and dunk down the field. Its as if he figured if they limit big plays, they will win the 20+ yard play barometer weekly by just having Rodgers. I am extremely curious as to what he does with Hundley in the lineup. Will he become more aggressive, trying to force turnovers (more then he already does) or will he be even more conservative?

I feel like this is a seldom talked about potential defensive shift in philosophy. We will see I guess

I actually brought exactly this up on one of these threads. Your defensive philosophy has to be different when you're backing up Rodgers vs backing up Hundley. There needs to be a higher risk ratio. Dom (rightly or wrongly) bets on bonds with Rodgers in the game. Force the opponent to out-efficient Rodgers (tough) by not giving up big plays.

With Hundley, you have to place your bets differently now. And I suspect he will. I bet the defensive drive length decreases significantly the rest of the season. More sacks, more yardage chunks by offense.

[SpeightTheVillain]

6 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

I actually brought exactly this up on one of these threads. Your defensive philosophy has to be different when you're backing up Rodgers vs backing up Hundley. There needs to be a higher risk ratio. Dom (rightly or wrongly) bets on bonds with Rodgers in the game. Force the opponent to out-efficient Rodgers (tough) by not giving up big plays.

With Hundley, you have to place your bets differently now. And I suspect he will. I bet the defensive drive length decreases significantly the rest of the season. More sacks, more yardage chunks by offense.

So you think he will be aggressive? I tend to agree.

I actually think this may unlock the gambling Dom I think we need, and haven't necessarily seen since 2010 when Rodgers was a relative unknown.

I think Dom has become too passive playing the percentages of a HOF QB on the other side. I'm kind of excited to see the exotic kind of stuff he draws up. Live and die by the big play on D. Vintage Dom. 

[incognito_man]

14 minutes ago, SpeightTheVillain said:

So you think he will be aggressive? I tend to agree.

I actually think this may unlock the gambling Dom I think we need, and haven't necessarily seen since 2010 when Rodgers was a relative unknown.

I think Dom has become too passive playing the percentages of a HOF QB on the other side. I'm kind of excited to see the exotic kind of stuff he draws up. Live and die by the big play on D. Vintage Dom. 

I do, I think our defense will be more aggressive the rest of the season.

[Packerraymond]

12 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I said it before this year started, and you can look it up in the archives if you don't believe me, this defense is too soft. 

Matthews I wouldn't call soft, but he's definitely more finesse, which is why I want him not rushing the passer and instead utilizing his playmaking ability.  I dislike Fackrell so much I would literally pull an Ossweiler trade with him.  I would literally give a 7th round pick to somebody to take Fackrell.  He's soft as Fack. 

I'd like to lock you in a room with Mike Daniels and then have you express these feelings.

This defense isn't soft. People have been whining about this since Bob Sanders days, someone will always bring it up.

[pollino14]

6 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

I'd like to lock you in a room with Mike Daniels and then have you express these feelings.

This defense isn't soft. People have been whining about this since Bob Sanders days, someone will always bring it up.

I agree, outside of Randall who obviously shies away from any contact, I can't really name a guy who I would call "soft". In fact, thinking about it more, I think we have a lot of gritty guys on our D. 

[MacReady]

7 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

I'd like to lock you in a room with Mike Daniels and then have you express these feelings.

Come on.  Obviously he's like the one player who isn't soft.  Lock me in a room with Kyler Fackrell and he'd apologize for taking up so much space in the room.  Randall, Fackrell, Ryan, Rollins = soft.

Matthews, Lowry, Martinez, Burnett, Clinton-Dix, Thomas, House = Not soft, but certainly not the opposite.  I'd call them finesse, which is a step above soft. 

RJF, Brooks, Daniels, Jones, Brice, King = Opposite of soft/play with a nastiness/swagger.

The rest I have no opinion on yet.  Obviously they're not soft people (except for Fackrell), but respective to their positions in the NFL, yeah, I think some of our players are soft. 

Is it any wonder that four of the players who are decidedly not soft weren't on our roster last year?  The defense needs less players like who we have and more players like Bud Dupree, Ryan Shazier (way too much hair on our defense), Mike Mitchell...

I'm a firm believer in attitude and personality being an intangible aspect to the success of a defense, and we don't have that intangible.  The Steelers do.  The Bills do.  The Jaguars are getting it.  The Vikings and Bengals certainly have it.  The Seahawks, Broncos and Eagles have it.  I just listed 8/10 top scoring defenses in the NFL. 

We took a step in the right direction with Jones and King.  More important than their speed and athleticism is their attitude, and I'm very excited about watching their development for the rest of this year.  I just want more of them and less of what we have.  This started YEARS ago with something Palmy said, so I'm using him as my reference.  It was a post in response to something about this right around the time Datone Jones was drafted.  People were talking about whether or not our defense was soft, and he said that Datone Jones was "fake tough," and ever since then the accusations of our defense being soft started making sense to me.

Since 2010, I'd consider only one year a GOOD OVERALL DEFENSE, and that year being 2014, second best being the 2013 defense.  Cullen Jenkins, Nick Collins, Charles Woodson, Howard Green, Desmond Bishop (I'll never forget the way he sacked Brady in 2010)... They all had it, plus a few more that weren't very good.  We need Jones/King to turn into good football players. 

[Packerraymond]

You listed a 4th string EDGE, backup CBs and Jake Ryan (who I 1000% disagree is a soft player), that makes a soft defense huh?

I think you have this weird obsession with Kyler Fackrell and you let your opinion of him dictate your opinion of our defense as a whole.

If you watch the Dallas tape, or CHI tape or Seattle tape and come away that what you see is a soft defense, I'd love to know what makes a tough defense.

[TheOnlyThing]

I agree with the overall proposition that the Pack's defensive personnel is not soft. I do think Dom has been playing a pretty passive scheme in 2017 to prevent the big play but I don't think that the players, for the most part, are soft.

That said, Kyler Fackrell is a 2nd team outside linebacker not "a 4th string EDGE."  Fackrell has gotten extensive playing time this season. With Brooks probably out with an injury, he is likely to be the 3rd OLBer on Sunday. 

Kyler Fackrell is also the personification of soft.

As for Rollins & Randall, in 2016 they were counted on to be CBs 2 & 3 on a defense that constantly plays 3 CBs, they were hardly "backup CBs." They were also given every shot to play in 2017 as well and Randall is still playing extensively. They are/were also soft players.

Finally, I agree that Jake Ryan is not a soft player. Those calling Ryan soft are mistaking his lack of talent for softness in my view. 

 

[packfanfb]

9 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

I'd like to lock you in a room with Mike Daniels and then have you express these feelings.

This defense isn't soft. People have been whining about this since Bob Sanders days, someone will always bring it up.

Maybe soft isnt the right word, but we are very poor tackling team (especially in the secondary) and we don't rally to the ball for ****. When I watch other teams tackle and rally on ball carriers, its night and day sometimes. 

[MacReady]

9 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You listed a 4th string EDGE, backup CBs and Jake Ryan (who I 1000% disagree is a soft player), that makes a soft defense huh?

I think you have this weird obsession with Kyler Fackrell and you let your opinion of him dictate your opinion of our defense as a whole.

If you watch the Dallas tape, or CHI tape or Seattle tape and come away that what you see is a soft defense, I'd love to know what makes a tough defense.

1. Fackrell is not 4th string. 
2. Ryan whiffs on so many tackles and it feels like his pursuit is stopped if a lineman smiles at him.
3. Define soft. 

I'm not saying our defense is made up of players who pet kittens all day and get hurt feelings if you don't compliment them.  I'm saying our defense feels closer to a group of men hanging around at a country club than people who have been in a foxhole.  I think that's a reflection of the coordinator, and I don't care how many times people say it's nothing, the image of your defensive coordinator sitting comfortably in a weather-controlled press box I absolutely hate.  HATE. 

It's the perception, and considering players from other teams have literally called our defense soft, I think perception is reality to other NFL teams.  Our defense is not respected.  AT ALL.