Nick_gb Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 10 minutes ago, SkippyX said: Moss is literally just a 6.5% of Brady's games cherry on top. I am dealing in reality and you have an agenda. I'm just jumping into this conversation. However, the guy is right. If you're taking them out of the equation due to amount of games played with Tom Brady relative to his career but continuing to use their stats relative to Brady's career then you aren't doing this right. Your break downs are good, they're just not accurate if that's what's going on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Probably worth noting that in 16 of his 19 years starting, Brady's defenses have been top 10 for points against. This includes 10 of the last 11 years. In Rodgers 13 years starting, he has had a top 10 defense for points on just 3 occasions. Now I don't think there's any argument against Brady being the goat, but while we can argue until the cows come home about who had the better line, running support, or pass catchers, there is absolutely zero debate to be had over Brady having far more help over his career from the defensive side of the ball, over which neither QB has any control. Also, claiming Gronkowski doesn't count is a seriously credibility destroying claim. He has more catches, yards, and TD's from Brady than anyone does from Rodgers (or indeed Brady) over both of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 15 hours ago, CWood21 said: Even if you want to take Gronk into the equation, I think his impact is overstated. He only had 4 seasons where he eclipsed 800 yards receiving (5 where he eclipsed 600 yards receiving). He's though of highly because of his TD receptions where in 5 of his first 6 seasons he had 10+ TD receptions. He was a tremendous RZ target. But he was overrated as a receiver IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 16 hours ago, CWood21 said: Even if you want to take Gronk into the equation, I think his impact is overstated. He only had 4 seasons where he eclipsed 800 yards receiving (5 where he eclipsed 600 yards receiving). He's though of highly because of his TD receptions where in 5 of his first 6 seasons he had 10+ TD receptions. He was a tremendous RZ target. But he was overrated as a receiver IMO. Wow. I mean my team has Kelce so I should be as biased against Gronk as it gets. Gronk is the best Tight End I've ever seen, and receiving is absolutely part of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 14 hours ago, CWood21 said: Stop. You stop. You are wrong, they are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 52 minutes ago, BigTrav said: Wow. I mean my team has Kelce so I should be as biased against Gronk as it gets. Gronk is the best Tight End I've ever seen, and receiving is absolutely part of that. It really is a ludicrous claim alright. I mean injuries could be brought up as a fair point, and he's not what he once was, but 2011-17 gronk averaged 77.1yds a game - that works out to 1,230 over 16 games. Just checked for reference and Kelce 2016-20 is 78.8ypg (1,261 over 16 games). Kelce is f'ing unreal but as you say Gronk is simply the GOAT TE if we're talking peak performance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 5 hours ago, WideRight said: Those were very very different situations. Montana wasn't even the starter in SF lol. Brady was certainly not an MVP candidate and apparently had a relationship with his head coach that had deteriorated. Apples to oranges. Rodgers' best chance to win in the near future remains in GB and GB's best option to win remains in Rodgers. Montana wasn't the starter because he got hurt then Young stepped in. Anything can happen. Most all time great QBs do not play their entire careers with one team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Billy86 said: Probably worth noting that in 16 of his 19 years starting, Brady's defenses have been top 10 for points against. This includes 10 of the last 11 years. In Rodgers 13 years starting, he has had a top 10 defense for points on just 3 occasions. Now I don't think there's any argument against Brady being the goat, but while we can argue until the cows come home about who had the better line, running support, or pass catchers, there is absolutely zero debate to be had over Brady having far more help over his career from the defensive side of the ball, over which neither QB has any control. Also, claiming Gronkowski doesn't count is a seriously credibility destroying claim. He has more catches, yards, and TD's from Brady than anyone does from Rodgers (or indeed Brady) over both of their careers. Raw PPG is a terrible way to judge offense and defense effectiveness lol. Their team defensive DVOA’s(which adjust for SOS/starting field position) been very comparable. Edited January 27, 2021 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 5 hours ago, SkippyX said: Moss is literally just a 6.5% of Brady's games cherry on top. I am dealing in reality and you have an agenda. Says the guy who's cherry picking. Where's the wall of text for Gronk? It's like you refuse to take my stance head-on. Either you believe that a fair argument can be made by excluding Moss + TEs from Brady's receivers when comparing them to Rodgers receiver, or you don't. I don't. Also, I don't care about just Moss, or just Gronk, I care about the whole. IMO, taking out Moss, Gronk, or anybody really is an obvious ploy to make the argument one-sided. BTW Moss might have played 6.5% of his games, but hauled in 8.6% of his TDs. Sounds significant to the Tom Brady story to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Year Pack Fan Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 3:48 PM, Uncle Buck said: It shouldn't be too hard to find a replacement for him in the draft. Already have Williams and Dillon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: Raw PPG is a terrible way to judge offense and defense effectiveness lol. Their team defensive DVOA’s(which adjust for SOS/starting field position) been very comparable. When talking about the specifics of if defense a is better than defense b then sure, dvoa has some good merit. However when talking about wins and losses of qbs it is not really relevant to the discussion. Simply put, If defense a concedes less points than defense b, the QB and offense a need to score less points in order to to win than QB and offense b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Billy86 said: When talking about the specifics of if defense a is better than defense b then sure, dvoa has some good merit. However when talking about wins and losses of qbs it is not really relevant to the discussion. Simply put, If defense a concedes less points than defense b, the QB and offense a need to score less points in order to to win than QB and offense b. Except that there’s a lot of variation in annual scoring output with similar yardage, plus the effect of competition and game script (big lead / deficit). DVOA isn’t perfect but it accounts for stuff like that. It does a better job of evaluating performance and thus gives a far better indicator of the quality of the team around a QB. It’s not even close compared to using simple bulk stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideRight Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, CP3MVP said: Montana wasn't the starter because he got hurt then Young stepped in. Anything can happen. Most all time great QBs do not play their entire careers with one team Montana got hurt in the ‘90 NFC title game and missed all of ‘91. He was the backup in ‘92 while Steve Young won MVP. As he’s now said himself, Rodgers will be back with GB in ‘21. No question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Billy86 said: When talking about the specifics of if defense a is better than defense b then sure, dvoa has some good merit. However when talking about wins and losses of qbs it is not really relevant to the discussion. Simply put, If defense a concedes less points than defense b, the QB and offense a need to score less points in order to to win than QB and offense b. Yeah and DOVA is way better at judging a defense than raw PPG. The 2017 pats were a “top 5 scoring defense” and they were garbage. 31st in DVOA When looking at defensive efficiency, their defenses have absolutely been comparable over the course of their careers. Same thing with Peyton Manning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 35 minutes ago, WideRight said: Montana got hurt in the ‘90 NFC title game and missed all of ‘91. He was the backup in ‘92 while Steve Young won MVP. As he’s now said himself, Rodgers will be back with GB in ‘21. No question. Yeah because he got hurt. That’s why steve was the starter in 91 and 92. Rodgers will okay with GB in 2021 but I’d put it as a less than 10% chance he finishes his career with them. Which is the case for most all time great QBs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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