SkippyX Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said: Yeah, but the real argument is weapons. To only focus on WRs (and eliminating Moss from the pool no less), is an unfair argument. You're basically setting the other side up for an instant loss. Brady played 20 regular season games with Moss 21 if you count his 11 passes in 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 15 minutes ago, SkippyX said: Brady played 20 regular season games with Moss 21 if you count his 11 passes in 2008. And? So that means nothing? Should we just remove that production from Brady's numbers than when discussing weapons vs passer performance? I'm gonna reiterate my point, if you are not including TEs or Moss, you're not making a fair argument when it comes to which QB had better receivers/weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, SkippyX said: Now take a look at their cap and their free agents. The cap shrinks (they are 28 million in the red) A-A-Ron gets a 15.6 million bump against the cap compared to this year. Zadarius goes up by 4.75 million Preston goes up by 2.5 million Bakhtiari goes up by 3.1 million MVS goes up by 1.4 million A bunch of players get bumps between 250k and 600k Linsley is a UFA Aaron Jones is a UFA Jamaal Williams is a UFA Robert Tonyan is an RFA and someone will pay him (how do they match?) He made 750k this year, it will be 5-8 million next year This team will not improve next year. https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/green-bay-packers/ They will offer Tonyan a 2nd round tender at 3.5M. They are letting 1 RB walk. They will do everything they can to sign Lindley with a big signing bonus to back load the deal. That will give him a sub 8M hit. How do they get the 38M to make this work? Easy - the top 10 contracts have 60M+ in actual base salaries. You restructure over 4 years and convert 50M to signing bonuses. - 3/4 of that gets pushed further to 2022-24 when the cap goes up by 40M in 2022, and likely a LOT more in 2023-24 with the new TV deal in 2022. PHI & NO are in serious trouble because their restructure options are limited to their massive number. Pretty much every other team can make it work. GB won’t be any worse - but they probably only have 1-2 moderate upgrades and nothing earth shattering on the surface. It’s why addressing WR or CB / DL on day 1-2 would have helped them so much more in the 2020 draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said: Yeah, but the real argument is weapons. To only focus on WRs (and eliminating Moss from the pool no less), is an unfair argument. You're basically setting the other side up for an instant loss. Even if you want to take Gronk into the equation, I think his impact is overstated. He only had 4 seasons where he eclipsed 800 yards receiving (5 where he eclipsed 600 yards receiving). He's though of highly because of his TD receptions where in 5 of his first 6 seasons he had 10+ TD receptions. He was a tremendous RZ target. But he was overrated as a receiver IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 32 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said: And? So that means nothing? Should we just remove that production from Brady's numbers than when discussing weapons vs passer performance? I'm gonna reiterate my point, if you are not including TEs or Moss, you're not making a fair argument when it comes to which QB had better receivers/weapons. OK, bro, This is how reality works. Brady played 278 regular season games without Moss and 21 with him. Moss was on the field for 6.69% of Brady's regular season games. Brady has been to 9 Super Bowl without Moss. Gronk played 129 games with Brady Now lets do Rodgers Rodgers and Jordy Nelson? Try 107 games Rodgers and Donald Driver Try 75 games Rodgers and Greg Jennings Try about 65 games (most of these 65 were with all 3 of them) His 4th WR in those early seasons was James Jones (about 100 games) Jones had a 14 TD season His 5th WR in 2011 was Randall Cobb (about 100 games) In 2012 is was Jones as Cobb stepped up Rodgers and Davante Adams Try 93 games The only SB Rodgers won was with 4 WRs who combined for 14 individual seasons of 1000+ yards 6 individual seasons of 10+ TDs 6 pro bowls (3 of the 4 were in the pro bowl at some point) 240+ NFL TDs (72, 64, 61, 51) In 2011 with a 15-1 team where the backup QB put up 7 TDs in week 17 he could not keep up with Eli with those same guys plus Cobb. Another pro bowl, another 1000 yard season, and 47 career TDs so far. 5 WRs who have combined for almost 300 TDs and he was 1-and-done. Brady wins Championship games with Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Chris Hogan, David Patten types. Undrafted Edelman is playoff clutch but he's a career : 3 seasons of 1000+ no pro bowls no 10 TD seasons 36 career TDs Deion Branch had: No 1000+ seasons No pro bowls No 10+ TD seasons 39 career TDs He did have Brandon LaFell that one time No 1000 yard seasons No pro bowls No 10+ TD seasons 31 career TDs Gronk has been to 5 Super Bowls and won 2 of them. That means Brady has been to 5 without Gronk, winning 4. Brady came back from 28-3 without Gronk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) The one time in his entire career that Brady had 2 excellent receivers at the same time he put up 50 TDs, went 16-0, and lost the Super Bowl on a helmet catch. You are watching the 2nd time it has happened. (and he's 43!) You could even say he has 4 this year. for maybe 6 games this year and likely the Super Bowl Edited January 27, 2021 by SkippyX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Adding Welker ('07-'12) for clarity 5 years of 1000 yards 5 pro bowls 1 season of 10+ TDs 50 career TDs You'd have to say Welker was by far his best WR outside of the one 2007 season with Moss. He did not win with Welker though (ask Giselle why) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: Even if you want to take Gronk into the equation, I think his impact is overstated. He only had 4 seasons where he eclipsed 800 yards receiving (5 where he eclipsed 600 yards receiving). He's though of highly because of his TD receptions where in 5 of his first 6 seasons he had 10+ TD receptions. He was a tremendous RZ target. But he was overrated as a receiver IMO. I don't know why you used 800 as your cutoff when you should be saying he eclipsed 1,000 yards 4 times. Those also, coincidentally enough, were the only times he played near full seasons. He had 790 yards in 11 games in 2012, 592 in 7 games in 2013, 540 in 8 games in 2016. So, basically, all his other non-injured years he went over 1,000 until 2018. And in his injury shortened seasons he was on pace to do so. No, he was not overrated as a receiver. Gronk's only issue was his health. When on the field, Gronk is probably the most dominant TE to ever play the game. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: No, he was not overrated as a receiver. Gronk's only issue was his health. When on the field, Gronk is probably the most dominant TE to ever play the game. Stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 7 hours ago, CP3MVP said: If Montana can leave San Fran and Brady can leave NE Aaron can also leave Only if he forces GB to trade him or he "retires" like Favre did. Rodgers is under contract until 2023. The team President and HC don't seem to be in a hurry to get rid of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheatieMan Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 On 1/25/2021 at 5:14 PM, ronjon1990 said: He's an undeniably great QB and unless something drastically changes, he probably has a couple more seasons of high level play left for himself. From my perspective, he should move on for a number of reasons: Green Bay has already started planning for the long term without him. They haven't heeded his calls for more weapons. Adams is fantastic. But Lazard, MVS, St. Brown, Tonyan? Really? They have varying levels of potential, but Rodgers absolutely elevates all of them. Testament to his talent, testament to Green Bay not doing him any favors. First it was D, now it's supporting cast. With the game on the line, Matt LaFleur took the ball out of Rodgers' hands and caved for a FG. I have to imagine that caused a bit of a rift even if unspoken, regardless of how well they get along. 2 straight NFC championship games, and in both the lack of weapons hurt. Also, seems like the O-line depth has been a longstanding problem on that note. You know Rodgers has to be thinking "I could've gone to 2 Superbowls in 2 years and might've won them both. Wouldn't it be nice if I wasn't carrying this team the entire way kicking and screaming?" and he wouldn't really be wrong. Dude should've had at least 4 Superbowl appearances by now, if not more. Given all that, if I'm Rodgers, I'm cool playing elsewhere and chasing the ring. Manning had pretty good success with Denver (got to 2 quick Superbowls and won a 2nd ring) outside of running into the Legion of Boom in one Superbowl and the Ravens Defense of Destiny in the 2012 playoffs. I think Rodgers has more years to offer a team than Manning could have foreseen himself having in Denver. Looking around the league, San Francisco, New Orleans, LA Rams (other than Goff's contract status) Pittsburgh if Roethlisberger leaves, Indianapolis, New England?, and Miami if they're really not sold on Tua, are all teams he could sniff out with a reasonable shot at putting that team over the top. Even some up and coming teams like Carolina, Las Vegas, Houston if Watson checks out, and maybe Washington could also be viable options to varying degrees. So it's not like suitors wouldn't be clamoring for him. Personally, I think Rodgers in San Francisco would be a beautiful mix of skills, talent, coaching, and poetic justice. Why release him just like that, only to see him sign with a long time rival? Especially when the team is in contention and not looking to rebuild like Indy with Luck. I would want two firsts from San Fran, otherwise they’d have a beeline to the SB in a division that probably dips next year. WFT is worth considering if they can add weapons there, but it should still come with a hefty price tag which Snyder may not be able to afford. There is no way I’d let Rogers end up in SF or Dallas (assuming Dak doesn’t resign). Has to be AFC, which is stacked at the moment. Colts on the decline so I don’t see a fit there either... maybe... Denver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, WheatieMan said: Why release him just like that, only to see him sign with a long time rival? Especially when the team is in contention and not looking to rebuild like Indy with Luck. I would want two firsts from San Fran, otherwise they’d have a beeline to the SB in a division that probably dips next year. WFT is worth considering if they can add weapons there, but it should still come with a hefty price tag which Snyder may not be able to afford. There is no way I’d let Rogers end up in SF or Dallas (assuming Dak doesn’t resign). Has to be AFC, which is stacked at the moment. Colts on the decline so I don’t see a fit there either... maybe... Denver? I mean, I definitely don't see Green Bay releasing him. It would have to be him forcing his way out- which I don't really see either, regardless of what's ultimately said. I think the underlying frustrations might be there right now, but I really don't see it being much more than some low level hypotheticals. It would take a ridiculous amount of goodwill erosion for the necessary moves to be made. That being said, I bet SF would gladly pony up 2 firsts today if they thought they could get him. As you said, they'd be fast tracking right into SB territory. And they'd have plenty of financial wiggle room to do so without losing much firepower. They've done a pretty good job in that department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 13 hours ago, SkippyX said: OK, bro, This is how reality works. So I only imagined that Brady played with Gronk and Moss? He did or he didn't, and if you want to take them out of the argument than take them out of the stats. Remove the TD's, yards, and completions that Brady threw to every non-receiver not named Moss then. You can try and minimize their effect on Brady's performance all you like, and act like Moss isn't regarded as one of the best WRs of all time or Gronk one of the best TEs. But is that really how reality works? Crazy how I'm not even saying Rodgers had worse weapons or anything like that - I'm just saying don't cherry pick to make your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideRight Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, CP3MVP said: If Montana can leave San Fran and Brady can leave NE Aaron can also leave Those were very very different situations. Montana wasn't even the starter in SF lol. Brady was certainly not an MVP candidate and apparently had a relationship with his head coach that had deteriorated. Apples to oranges. Rodgers' best chance to win in the near future remains in GB and GB's best option to win remains in Rodgers. Edited January 27, 2021 by WideRight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said: So I only imagined that Brady played with Gronk and Moss? He did or he didn't, and if you want to take them out of the argument than take them out of the stats. Remove the TD's, yards, and completions that Brady threw to every non-receiver not named Moss then. You can try and minimize their effect on Brady's performance all you like, and act like Moss isn't regarded as one of the best WRs of all time or Gronk one of the best TEs. But is that really how reality works? Crazy how I'm not even saying Rodgers had worse weapons or anything like that - I'm just saying don't cherry pick to make your argument. Moss is literally just a 6.5% of Brady's games cherry on top. I am dealing in reality and you have an agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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