Maximum Carnage Mafia (Legacy) - GAME OVER Bcb wins and everyone else loses, lol

[MWil23]

10 minutes ago, Blue said:

what is precisely the source of the "wow" here

I'm surprised that the 2nd part of that role wasn't utilized...if you give it to someone like me...25/75 I turn into a complete maniac.  

[Daniel]

14 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

After reflecting on this - I don't feel bad about this outcome at all. This game lasted what, 8 votes and we voted out town a grand total of zero times

5 votes for carnage and eliminated them in 6 nights, and 3 vote outs of harmful-other

The mastermind who beat us was outed as harmful other and was next on the list, and our only error was voting the bad guys in the wrong order - which was actually the order that made logical sense via our wincon

I can walk away from this feeling like the heroes did a lot of good work..

I wasn't a harmful other.

[Blue]

31 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I'm surprised that the 2nd part of that role wasn't utilized...if you give it to someone like me...25/75 I turn into a complete maniac.  

He was RBed N1, invested N2, killed N3, was killed N4. Not a lot of opportunity tbh.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

He was RBed N1, invested N2, killed N3, was killed N4. Not a lot of opportunity tbh.

Roleblocked? Who would do such a thing...  

[Blue]

MVP: Tk3

Admittedly, Songbird was a pretty important role for filtering out who was and was not a threat to Town in this game, but Tk3 had really good targets almost every Night and was basically the only Townie who pushed Bcb. He gave Town all the information they needed to win at the end, not his fault they didn’t listen.

LVP: Buff

The implosion on Day 1 was bad on its own, but losing his role on D1 was absolutely brutal for scum. It took out a huge element of their game right off the bat and made the invests a lot stronger. The other options of Gopher and KSJ would have been big for scum that early, and it would have been a nightmare for Gopher to fill his wincon if he had been lynched that Day.

JVP: Daniel

On top of targeting the only two roles in the game that he couldn’t redirect, the claim of Purple Man on Day 3 was…something. I know he was in a bad spot as the center of an alignment cop triangle with Squire and  Gopher, but knowing what Daniel did, the obvious strategy there (to me) was to push Squire hard. Claiming Purple Man at any point during that would have done nothing but seal his fate, and it did.

Move of the Game: Nacho Nightkills Gopher

Nacho triggered Gopher’s transformation into Red Hulk, which both brought another kill into the game and ensured that he would be anti-Thunderbolts but, crucially, NOT anti-Hero for Hire. It also kept Orca alive another Day, which may have contributed to Bcb sliding under the radar for the stealth Mastermind win. I don’t know what happens if Nacho stuck with his previous target of Orca, but it’s fun to think about.

[rackcs]

5 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I'm assuming that @Blue wasn't counting on me outing Green as a recruitable "cult/Town" mechanic...and I'm sure that @kingseanjohn and @rackcs weren't thrilled by that either. That said, the way it played out with Orca and the subsequent down the stretch invests/moves that should have united Town/Green Town and allowed everyone to connect the dots on BCB in light of TK3's move were there...they were just ignored.

IMO had I not done that, it would have ended badly for Green...but after the way things ended this game, that would have been funnier/more entertaining.  

At the time we weren't happy but in the end I do think it ended up being the right move.

[Scoundrel]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

MVP: Tk3

 

Admittedly, Songbird was a pretty important role for filtering out who was and was not a threat to Town in this game, but Tk3 had really good targets almost every Night and was basically the only Townie who pushed Bcb. He gave Town all the information they needed to win at the end, not his fault they didn’t listen.

 

LVP: Buff

 

The implosion on Day 1 was bad on its own, but losing his role on D1 was absolutely brutal for scum. It took out a huge element of their game right off the bat and made the invests a lot stronger. The other options of Gopher and KSJ would have been big for scum that early, and it would have been a nightmare for Gopher to fill his wincon if he had been lynched that Day.

 

JVP: Daniel

 

On top of targeting the only two roles in the game that he couldn’t redirect, the claim of Purple Man on Day 3 was…something. I know he was in a bad spot as the center of an alignment cop triangle with Squire and  Gopher, but knowing what Daniel did, the obvious strategy there (to me) was to push Squire hard. Claiming Purple Man at any point during that would have done nothing but seal his fate, and it did.

 

Move of the Game: Nacho Nightkills Gopher

 

Nacho triggered Gopher’s transformation into Red Hulk, which both brought another kill into the game and ensured that he would be anti-Thunderbolts but, crucially, NOT anti-Hero for Hire. It also kept Orca alive another Day, which may have contributed to Bcb sliding under the radar for the stealth Mastermind win. I don’t know what happens if Nacho stuck with his previous target of Orca, but it’s fun to think about.

 

This all we got?

[Blue]

Misc. Mechanics Stuff:

-          I hear the complaints about the Mastermind role re: the Town wincon, but I stand by it. I would agree that it was a bull**** result if not for Tk3 getting a “can’t win together” wincon result for H4H and Bcb, so at the very least H4H should have known something was up; Bcb claiming survivor Indy but not his alignment or character; game not ending with Swag’s death; the existence of Daniel’s flip showing that there was at least one Mastermind role in the game. I feel there were a ton of signs that it wasn’t that simple and both Towns ignored them except for Rack and Tk3. Additionally, Bcb could have won with Town, so I don’t agree that he was a “threat” per se. I don’t believe there’s a solution here that makes everybody happy—Mastermind is an inherently bastard role, and I knew when I put it in that there would be some discontent if it won.

-          Tk3 comparing specifically win conditions, not alignments, was meant to both indicate the game wasn’t as simple as the Town wincon made it out to be and to sow confusion. Hero for Hire would show as unable to win with T-bolts until Ross was eliminated; Bcb would show as unable to win with anyone except Daniel if Ross was eliminated, OR with the Symbiotes if Iron Fist was eliminated. That’s not even including the framer shenanigans. I was looking forward to seeing some contradictory results with his ability in late game, but the slaughter of non-Town meant that didn’t really happen.

-          I did not expect Town to blithely ignore a secondary supposedly-Town faction openly recruiting and admitting to having to kill the leaders of both major factions in order to win. Mwil openly admitting everything on Day 3 should have gotten him or one of the masons voted out instantly, and yet nobody batted an eye. Just, wow. I blame myself (only half-joking, here). See Personal Critiques for how I should have fixed this.

-          The reason that people were told they were roleblocked is because there were multiple roles in the game that either couldn’t be roleblocked, redirected, or both. I didn’t want Town RBer to waste multiple Nights trying to roleblock someone who couldn’t be roleblocked; thus, “your ability failed” was meant to be a clue for them to realize, “oh, my ability won’t work on this person,” rather than assuming they were just getting roleblocked every Night. It mattered that they knew that the problem was who they were targeting, not the result of someone else targeting them. It’s totally fine to disagree with that thinking and say you wouldn’t do it yourself, but don’t try to claim it’s somehow objectively wrong; it’s not.

-          Town believed a lot of claims by the Hero for Hire faction, Gopher, and Bcb that really didn’t make sense to me, mod knowledge notwithstanding. It felt like Town forgot that this is a game of deception. I don’t know why you got so laser-focused on filling the win condition; if it was really that straightforward, why have just five “true” scum and any third-party roles at all? How does a survivor role among all that make any sort of sense? Felt like you just wanted the game over ASAP, and honestly that’s a bit of a downer for me as a moderator. I never want people to get bored of my game or want it to just be over. If that’s how y’all were feeling, I’m sorry.

Personal Critiques: I liked the setup, but there are definitely some things I wish I could go back and change in hindsight. Not my best setup and some lessons learned here.

-          I should have made the Hero for Hire faction more aggressively anti-Town. Something like a wincon of “You must equal or outnumber the Thunderbolts faction AND General Ross must be eliminated before the game ends. You cannot win with Carnage; if the game ends before these conditions are met, you lose.” I should also have made it clearer that Ross dying would be bad for the Thunderbolts; perhaps making non-Thunderbolts unlynchable the following Day phase after his demise, for instance.

-          Bcb’s abilities were too Town-sided. I should have replaced his alignment invest with a frame, given him a character invest instead of ability invest, and made his bodyguard a jail if not an outright roleblock. His abilities were intended to make him a target for scum, but the game didn’t play out that way and I was likely naïve in thinking it would.

-          The Poison role should have been a doublevote gained after a successful Janitor, while Toxin should have been a straight up Jailer. I think that would have given the Symbiotes a bit more punch, encouraged them to use the Janitor in conjunction with their kill, and given Toxin more plausible deniability as a Town role.

-          Paladin’s gifts were too powerful in hindsight and I should have just included him as a fakeclaim character for scum. Jolt as an Innocent Beloved Princess would have been a better additional Town role. I had an idea for Black Knight that would have been fun as well.

[bcb1213]

All my claims were true so I don't know which one wasn't believable to be fair 

[MWil23]

28 minutes ago, Blue said:

I did not expect Town to blithely ignore a secondary supposedly-Town faction openly recruiting and admitting to having to kill the leaders of both major factions in order to win. Mwil openly admitting everything on Day 3 should have gotten him or one of the masons voted out instantly, and yet nobody batted an eye. Just, wow.

   

 

[Daniel]

I'll take getting JVP, but I had all the votes on me way before I claimed Purple Man.  Had no effect on whether I was lynched or not.  I don't think anyone else had more than 1 vote when I claimed.  It was literally a desperation move because it was clear that I was absolutely getting lynched as things were.

And yeah, attacking squire would have been an obvious move if I had suspected him, haha.

Ironically enough, I remember posting "Well, the only one Forge interacted with was squire," and still completely missed it.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Daniel

[Malfatron]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I wasn't a harmful other.

you won alone.

thus you were harmful like bcb

[Malfatron]

31 minutes ago, Blue said:

both Towns ignored them except for Rack and Tk3.

and malf in Rags chat!

[Blue]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I'll take getting JVP, but I had all the votes on me way before I claimed Purple Man.  Had no effect on whether I was lynched or not.  I don't think anyone else had more than 1 vote when I claimed.  It was literally a desperation move because it was clear that I was absolutely getting lynched as things were.

And yeah, attacking squire would have been an obvious move if I had suspected him, haha.

Ironically enough, I remember posting "Well, the only one Forge interacted with was squire," and still completely missed it.

I get where you're coming from, I just think you gave up on it too quickly. You're almost certainly dead no matter what, but given you knew/should have known Squire had to be scum given your wincon and Tk3's claim, I think you could have cleared yourself had you pushed him there.

Or Town would have just killed you anyways, perfectly plausible outcome.

[Blue]

1 minute ago, Malfatron said:

and malf in Rags chat!

Ah, that's true!