Maximum Carnage Mafia (Legacy) - GAME OVER Bcb wins and everyone else loses, lol

[Blue]

2 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

"Eliminate all threats to the Thunderbolts" wouldn't even really imply that, though. In most games, a lot of Indies aren't a threat. The wincon you gave as is instead sent the opposite (and false) implication that only Carnage was a threat.

Of course, once Daniel revealed he could win alone and bcb refused to claim the name of his Blue alignment, there was no excuse for town to not kill him. So yes, town's decision to let him linger on despite the false wincon was pretty bad lol.

This is what I meant when I said we could debate individual elements of my reasoning because you're not wrong, lol.

[kingseanjohn]

4 minutes ago, Blue said:

This is what I meant when I said we could debate individual elements of my reasoning because you're not wrong, lol.

Plus I think Thunderbirds would have been less trusting of H4H, which leads to different choices. 

[TheKillerNacho]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

This is what I meant when I said we could debate individual elements of my reasoning because you're not wrong, lol.

I mean I don't see much strength in the other points.

1. Changing the win condition wouldn't have prevented you from revealing Carnage at the game start which was the only hint town needed to know he wasn't killable right away.

3. Also more or less irrelevant - if using an "Eliminate all Threats to Thunderbolts" win condition wouldn't change who Red Hulk mechanically. If he was hunting Thunderbolts like in this game, it would fall under someone town needed to eliminate. Else, he wouldn't prevent town from winning because he's not a threat. I'm not understanding how changing the win condition here would remove the mystery.

4. What character was able to identify contradictory win conditions? I must admit I haven't read back too much of the post-game thread yet, been busy with work all day. Either way, a character that can determine threatening Indys from non-threatening ones would still be undoubtedly useful even if you used the "Eliminate all Threats" win condition.

5. A lot of people put stock that the host at least doesn't lie in Mafia lol.  I think it was pretty obvious bcb was a threat from what was said in thread, but I can't blame others who were just playing to their host-given win condition

6. I cannot speak to flavor much but if it is a thematic thing, you could've phrased the win condition as part of the flavor... like "General Thundercat gives you orders to defeat Carnage!", rather than an explicit win condition told from the host.

 

Again , I think this was a great game. And I know you had reason to do it the way you did, I merely disagree with it. Again, thanks for the game!

[SwAg]

Town:  I am going to ignore so many red flags that you would think it’s an episode of Hogan’s Heroes with the Soviets marching unabated on Berlin.

Also Town:  Hang about, hang about, hang about.  You mean there are consequences for that?

[kingseanjohn]

7 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

A lot of people put stock that the host at least doesn't lie in Mafia lol.  I think it was pretty obvious bcb was a threat from what was said in thread, but I can't blame others who were just playing to their host-given win condition

This is my only issue. I played to my win con, met it, and even confirmed it didn’t change. If my win con was “eliminate all threats” or something other than what it was, I wouldn’t have rushed through the end. 
 

Again blue, great game overall. I look forward to the next installment. 

[Tk3]

yeah.. I know I've complained a little bit about the mechanics of all this - but it was a super fun game

I'm glad I got to play it twice

[bcb1213]

Wins by himself 

Not mvp 

Bleeping voting machines again 

[Malfatron]

5 minutes ago, bcb1213 said:

Wins by himself 

Not mvp 

Bleeping voting machines again 

lol, yeah i agree with you.

You have to be MVP, and definitely played well despite your outward scumminess to not be the priority lynch on any day, and to also survive hits

[squire12]

3 hours ago, Tk3 said:

He also was seemingly the only town who picked up what I was laying down.. I assumed you did too, but I was hoping the fact that most of the town had me so high on their lists would keep me alive

I posted in the scum chat that you had some info on me early on D2.  your posts and votes were very focused on only myself or Daniel.    Thought it might have been a track at first since I had blocked MD4L, but by the end of the day, it was pretty clear it was a comparison move

[Blue]

1 hour ago, TheKillerNacho said:

I mean I don't see much strength in the other points.

1. Changing the win condition wouldn't have prevented you from revealing Carnage at the game start which was the only hint town needed to know he wasn't killable right away.

3. Also more or less irrelevant - if using an "Eliminate all Threats to Thunderbolts" win condition wouldn't change who Red Hulk mechanically. If he was hunting Thunderbolts like in this game, it would fall under someone town needed to eliminate. Else, he wouldn't prevent town from winning because he's not a threat. I'm not understanding how changing the win condition here would remove the mystery.

4. What character was able to identify contradictory win conditions? I must admit I haven't read back too much of the post-game thread yet, been busy with work all day. Either way, a character that can determine threatening Indys from non-threatening ones would still be undoubtedly useful even if you used the "Eliminate all Threats" win condition.

5. A lot of people put stock that the host at least doesn't lie in Mafia lol.  I think it was pretty obvious bcb was a threat from what was said in thread, but I can't blame others who were just playing to their host-given win condition

6. I cannot speak to flavor much but if it is a thematic thing, you could've phrased the win condition as part of the flavor... like "General Thundercat gives you orders to defeat Carnage!", rather than an explicit win condition told from the host.

 

Again , I think this was a great game. And I know you had reason to do it the way you did, I merely disagree with it. Again, thanks for the game!

1. Not true. That is likely the conclusion people would have drawn, but one option I considered was a sort of scum-sided Beloved Princess who would have negative effects on Town if he was voted off.

2. Thunderbolts wouldn't know who Red Hulk needed to eliminate, and because of the way he worked, he could theoretically be a threat to some but not all Thunderbolts. The only way I see to resolve this is to tell the targeted players that their win condition has changed, and naturally some of them would bring it up in thread or it would be obvious based on their attempts to push Red Hulk, so even if he didn't know alignments it would make it easier for him to hunt them down. It would have just been a bigger mess imo.

3. Tk3's role didn't compare alignments, it compared win conditions. Those win condition results would change depending on whether Ross was alive or not, whether Iron Fist was alive or not, etc. Again: the Mastermind roles were NOT necessarily threats to Town, and stating Town had to eliminate all threats didn't make sense as a result.

4. Again, host didn't lie. Mastermind role by definition is not revealed to be in the game and supersedes the win conditions of all other members of the related faction. However, that's not what I was talking about here--I was talking about Heroes for Hire (who weren't lying but Town had no reason to believe that), Red Hulk (lying about his wincon) and Bcb (lying about his wincon). Town flat-out never questioned their claims even with direct evidence to the contrary staring them in the face.

5. That sounds like the same thing as a wincon to me. Can you explain that a bit more?

[gopherwrestler]

@TheKillerNachohow last second was the last second change to kill me?

[Blue]

1 hour ago, kingseanjohn said:

This is my only issue. I played to my win con, met it, and even confirmed it didn’t change. If my win con was “eliminate all threats” or something other than what it was, I wouldn’t have rushed through the end. 
 

Again blue, great game overall. I look forward to the next installment. 

I'd agree if you didn't have explicit evidence you couldn't win with someone who was also rushing through to the end. I thought it was abundantly clear, once Bcb told everyone that you needed to vote Gopher out twice at the end, that Bcb had an ulterior motive. Not sure what the downside was to voting him out Day 8 instead of Gopher, it's not like Gopher could end the game by himself Night 8. EDIT: And it's not even that you didn't vote him out, it's that there wasn't even any discussion about it. Zero interest in figuring out why Bcb couldn't win with Heroes for Hire.

1 hour ago, Tk3 said:

yeah.. I know I've complained a little bit about the mechanics of all this - but it was a super fun game

I'm glad I got to play it twice

I am too!

1 hour ago, bcb1213 said:

Wins by himself 

Not mvp 

Bleeping voting machines again 

Very close runner-up, but frankly I think Tk3's moves rushed the game to a conclusion so quickly it enabled you to hit the solo wincon more than anything you yourself did--which is not a knock on you.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Blue

[kingseanjohn]

16 minutes ago, Blue said:

I'd agree if you didn't have explicit evidence you couldn't win with someone who was also rushing through to the end. I thought it was abundantly clear, once Bcb told everyone that you needed to vote Gopher out twice at the end, that Bcb had an ulterior motive. Not sure what the downside was to voting him out Day 8 instead of Gopher, it's not like Gopher could end the game by himself Night 8. EDIT: And it's not even that you didn't vote him out, it's that there wasn't even any discussion about it. Zero interest in figuring out why Bcb couldn't win with Heroes for Hire.

Because I thought I met my win con. I had zero reason to believe the host wasn’t truthful. 

Gopher was introduced with alternating red/black text. That hinted scum to me. 
I don’t believe that I’ve ever played a game with the mastermind role, so that’s likely part of the issue. I hope you aren’t taking any of this as an attack or personally. I’m just giving honest constructive criticism and really did enjoy the game despite the ending. 

[Blue]

Just now, kingseanjohn said:

 

Because I thought I met my win con. I had zero reason to believe the host wasn’t truthful. 

Gopher was introduced with alternating red/black text. That hinted scum to me. 
I don’t believe that I’ve ever played a game with the mastermind role, so that’s likely part of the issue. I hope you aren’t taking any of this as an attack or personally. I’m just giving honest constructive criticism and really did enjoy the game despite the ending. 

You did meet your wincon. Nobody lied about that.

Absolutely not, you're good! Gopher wasn't a threat to you at all, but you didn't know that, so fair enough on wanting to eliminate him. But the fact that a claimed non-Town role who couldn't win with you was on-board with eliminating him deserved some investigation, and Town just...didn't care.

[Daniel]

Who cares about WCs anyway.

Fun game Blue.