Maximum Carnage Mafia (Legacy) - GAME OVER Bcb wins and everyone else loses, lol

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

you won alone.

thus you were harmful like bcb

I could win alone.  I had no motive to eliminate Ross, and didn't need to to win.

That's bad logic.

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

I get where you're coming from, I just think you gave up on it too quickly. You're almost certainly dead no matter what, but given you knew/should have known Squire had to be scum given your wincon and Tk3's claim, I think you could have cleared yourself had you pushed him there.

Or Town would have just killed you anyways, perfectly plausible outcome.

This I have absolutely no dispute with.

[Blue]

All I'm going to say on the Mastermind role any more is that it's usually Mafia-sided, and Mafia are not told that there is a Mastermind in the game. They are given a standard "you win if your faction outnumbers all other players/Town." Not "you win if your faction eliminates all threats to you."

Mastermind wincon supersedes all other wincons. That's how the role works and that's why it's considered a bastard role. I understand if you hate that such a role was included in the game, but it's not inherently considered a threat because it shares a goal with the rest of its faction-it just screws the rest of the faction out of a win if they succeed, and that's why Mastermind almost always has to be alive at the end of the game to achieve its solo wincon (and typically loses no matter what if they die).

I have been thinking about it a bit more, and including a section in the OP regarding possible roles in the game may have helped. "There may be one or more Mastermind roles in the game which win alone if they are alive at the end of the game and supersede all other win conditions." Having a semi-open setup may be something I do going forward to avoid this in the future.

[gopherwrestler]

2 hours ago, Tk3 said:

After reflecting on this - I don't feel bad about this outcome at all. This game lasted what, 8 votes and we voted out town a grand total of zero times

5 votes for carnage and eliminated them in 6 nights, and 3 vote outs of harmful-other

The mastermind who beat us was outed as harmful other and was next on the list, and our only error was voting the bad guys in the wrong order - which was actually the order that made logical sense via our wincon

I can walk away from this feeling like the heroes did a lot of good work..

Oh absolutely town played a brilliant game outside of not lynching bcb. 
 

I will say that it was a tough way to end for the fact, everyone’s “wincon” was to eliminate carnage. So going after BCB instead of swag was pretty tough. 
 

from my perspective I honestly thought I probably had two chances to win, try and keep the two “non town” members alive (swag and BCB) 

or to just go and vote swag out, claim town, and then probably try and get a bcb vote the next day. And as blue added? To just tell the hero’s my situation and to just try and get the rest of the of the thunderbolts recruited and I’d have to kill one.

my biggest mistake was after the swag lynch I didn’t just use the PGO, instead I went and roleblocked. Bad mistake. 

[Pickle Rick]

Blue: I should have given pickle a real ability, it would have brought much more to the game 

Pickle: I agree. Make it happen next time 😘

[Tk3]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

I wasn't a harmful other.

This is not accurate

You were the same amount of harmful as bcb was.... who won the game alone

[Tk3]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

MVP: Tk3

 

Admittedly, Songbird was a pretty important role for filtering out who was and was not a threat to Town in this game, but Tk3 had really good targets almost every Night and was basically the only Townie who pushed Bcb. He gave Town all the information they needed to win at the end, not his fault they didn’t listen.

I absolutely nailed my invests - but tbh, it was mostly luck. One or two of them were done with heavy reasoning, but the early combinations which nailed 2 scum was just being fortunate in choosing the correct people and malf pushing them so that I didn't have to

I think chaining invests was the right call as opposed to picking 2 randoms, but beyond that it was most just lucky that I hit on them early

[Tk3]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

JVP: Daniel

 

On top of targeting the only two roles in the game that he couldn’t redirect, the claim of Purple Man on Day 3 was…something. I know he was in a bad spot as the center of an alignment cop triangle with Squire and  Gopher, but knowing what Daniel did, the obvious strategy there (to me) was to push Squire hard. Claiming Purple Man at any point during that would have done nothing but seal his fate, and it did.

100%

with an invest of Gopher - Daniel = okay, but Daniel - Squire = bad, I was going to play the numbers and assumed I nailed 2 civ, 1 scum as opposed to the opposite. Squire would have flipped red (granted, Daniel obviously didn't know that), and then I would have put both Daniel and Gopher SUPER low on all of towns radars

[Tk3]

@Blue

I don't want to beat a dead horse.. the game result is what it is, and certainly had an interesting conclusion..

But I'm curious what the reasoning is for the wincon NOT being "eliminate all threats to Thunderbolts"

That IS the standard wincon for town - what was the purpose of explicitly changing it to something extremely specific that wasn't 100% accurate to the way the game could/would go? Was that a conscious decision to choose the wording you did?

I think a different wincon leads a TON of people to play different.. The concern with the conversions, the treatment of independents.. It's pretty hard to give a clear wincon and then criticize people for not being concerned about things that seemingly are tangential?

[Blue]

16 minutes ago, Pickle Rick said:

Blue: I should have given pickle a real ability, it would have brought much more to the game 

Pickle: I agree. Make it happen next time 😘

Haha, you're not entirely wrong. You were supposed to be an enhanced Tabula Rasa/Universal Backup role, but you ended up being superfluous with scum disintegrating so badly. I'm surprised you didn't steal Nacho's or Daniel's abilities tbh.

[SwAg]

Yeah, Malfatron didn’t get MVP because he cheated.

[Tk3]

Just now, SwAg said:

Yeah, Malfatron didn’t get MVP because he cheated.

Malf was my MVP, tbh

He pushed the BBB vote and made the correct call to push the Daniel vote given the info I gave

He also was seemingly the only town who picked up what I was laying down.. I assumed you did too, but I was hoping the fact that most of the town had me so high on their lists would keep me alive

[SwAg]

Yeah, well, he’s a cheater.

[Scoundrel]

8 minutes ago, SwAg said:

Yeah, well, he’s a cheater.

And your hair is humongous 

[SwAg]

Just now, Counselor said:

And your hair is humongous 

That’s not the only thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also have abnormally large calves.

[Blue]

Just now, Tk3 said:

@Blue

I don't want to beat a dead horse.. the game result is what it is, and certainly had an interesting conclusion..

But I'm curious what the reasoning is for the wincon NOT being "eliminate all threats to Thunderbolts"

That IS the standard wincon for town - what was the purpose of explicitly changing it to something extremely specific that wasn't 100% accurate to the way the game could/would go? Was that a conscious decision to choose the wording you did?

I think a different wincon leads a TON of people to play different.. The concern with the conversions, the treatment of independents.. It's pretty hard to give a clear wincon and then criticize people for not being concerned about things that seemingly are tangential?

1. I wanted to indicate that Carnage himself couldn't be eliminated right away. Maybe that took away an element of the Mafia's game by not giving Town an opportunity to waste a lynch on the unkillable Godfather, but I felt that was a helpful clue for Town about his role (much like the "your ability failed" element).

2. The two Mastermind roles were only threats to Town under specific circumstances--I didn't think it was entirely fair to them to imply to Town that any non-Thunderbolts were a threat. Again, Daniel could have won with Town if Gopher was alive and a dead Bcb wins with Town. At best, I could have made their Mastermind wincons more difficult to achieve, but it's not like they had direct routes to accomplish killing Ross (or Iron Fist, for Bcb's alternate scum-sided wincon).

3. Red Hulk wasn't necessarily a threat to a specific alignment; whom he was a threat to depended entirely on the manner of his death and the players/roles involved. I felt it would add more to the game to have his goals be a little mysterious to add a layer of uncertainty to endgame.

4. There was an entire role whose purpose was specifically to identify contradictory wincons (NOT alignments). Hero for Hire explicitly knew they couldn't win with Bcb, who was doing everything he could to hasten the end of the game, and still didn't do anything about it. If that wasn't enough to show that they needed to get rid of him, I don't think anything was going to clue people in.

5. I don't think the "seemingly tangential" argument works because why bother having multiple third-party alignments in a game with such a supposedly clear wincon? To reiterate, I felt Town just stopped thinking at a certain point and forgot that people lie in Mafia.

6. Thematically, it made sense to have the Thunderbolts fixated on Carnage and not identifying other "threats." This is definitely the weakest reason IMO because it relies on knowledge of the source material, but characters like Purple Man and The Hand are clearly bad guys (on a different, distinct level from the other T-Bolts) who would seek to undermine the Thunderbolts if possible. The comparison I would make is having the Starks win with Ramsey Bolton in a Mafia setup--he might be inclined to help them towards their wincon, but he's 100% going to screw them for his own benefit if he's left alive.

In summary, I had a lot of reasons for it, we can certainly debate individual reasons as worthwhile or not, but I think all of them together make for a pretty strong case that it made sense to phrase it that way. I still wouldn't change the Thunderbolts wincon if I reworked the game--I would do stuff like modify the Hero for Hire wincon, add a "the game may include the following roles" section, and modify the Mastermind roles a bit.