NFL_Fan Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 On 2/5/2021 at 11:10 PM, FrantikRam said: Crediting QBs with wins and losses is incredibly stupid. Some people have argued that the Rams made a mistake because the Rams have won with Goff and the Lions have lost with Stafford. Who has more "control" - a QB over wins and losses or the best pass rusher on a team over the team pass rush? I would argue the latter. The QB never steps on the field defensively while the pass rusher will play 60-80% of pass rushing plays, if not more. How much attention they garner from the OL can directly lead to other pass rushers being productive. I've heard a QB get slammed for losing a million times. I've never once heard a pass rusher get slammed for his team not being effective overall at rushing the passer. It's incredibly stupid to credit a QB with wins/losses. qb touches the ball every play on offense you dodo bird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Forge said: There is no way that Goff had negative value in that trade Nah. It's looking like he had late first to second round value in the trade. Maybe higher if I'm undervaluing Teddy. On 2/5/2021 at 11:10 PM, FrantikRam said: Crediting QBs with wins and losses is incredibly stupid. Some people have argued that the Rams made a mistake because the Rams have won with Goff and the Lions have lost with Stafford. Somewhat correct. The Rams winning with Goff is more relevant to the outcome they need to achieve with Stafford for this trade to be a success. Quote Who has more "control" - a QB over wins and losses or the best pass rusher on a team over the team pass rush? I would argue the latter. The QB never steps on the field defensively while the pass rusher will play 60-80% of pass rushing plays, if not more. How much attention they garner from the OL can directly lead to other pass rushers being productive. I've heard a QB get slammed for losing a million times. I've never once heard a pass rusher get slammed for his team not being effective overall at rushing the passer. It's incredibly stupid to credit a QB with wins/losses. I mean, most people would say that the best pass rusher on the team has a massive effect on the team's pass rush. Rams fans are well aware at what Donald has done for the edge rushers playing with him of late (Fowler, Matthews, Floyd, etc.). Similarly, QBs have a massive effect on wins and losses. They don't do it alone, but at the end of the day, if there is one position that can make or break a team, it's the QB spot. If you don't have one, the odds of your team contending are extremely long. It's the most important position on the field by a very significant margin. So yeah, I have no issues with discussing wins and losses in QB conversations. Just add the necessary context and recognize the limitations of that stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 27 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Nah. It's looking like he had late first to second round value in the trade. Maybe higher if I'm undervaluing Teddy. Somewhat correct. The Rams winning with Goff is more relevant to the outcome they need to achieve with Stafford for this trade to be a success. I mean, most people would say that the best pass rusher on the team has a massive effect on the team's pass rush. Rams fans are well aware at what Donald has done for the edge rushers playing with him of late (Fowler, Matthews, Floyd, etc.). Similarly, QBs have a massive effect on wins and losses. They don't do it alone, but at the end of the day, if there is one position that can make or break a team, it's the QB spot. If you don't have one, the odds of your team contending are extremely long. It's the most important position on the field by a very significant margin. So yeah, I have no issues with discussing wins and losses in QB conversations. Just add the necessary context and recognize the limitations of that stat. Right but my overall point is that people bring up wins and losses constantly, but I've rarely heard something like "JJ Watt is clearly declining because he's not elevating the Texans pass rush" - and Watt has more influence over the Texans pass rush than a QB has in winning or losing a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 4 hours ago, NFL_Fan said: qb touches the ball every play on offense you dodo bird Which means they could have control over 50% of the outcome since they don't step on the field to play defense. But it's even less than that because there will be run plays. And less still because if the OL decides not to block the QB won't be winning that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, FrantikRam said: Right but my overall point is that people bring up wins and losses constantly, but I've rarely heard something like "JJ Watt is clearly declining because he's not elevating the Texans pass rush" - and Watt has more influence over the Texans pass rush than a QB has in winning or losing a game. Well, when Watt isn't elevating the Texans pass rush, he will be declining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Well, when Watt isn't elevating the Texans pass rush, he will be declining. And nobody will talk about it. If the Rams pass rush regresses to league average next year but Donald has 20 sacks, he still likely wins DPOY. That's fine with me since I don't like giving team success credit/blame to an individual player. But to me that would feel like a QB having Watson's season this year - and I'm fine with that too - we ignore the team result and identify that Watson is a top 5 QB despite the team only winning 4 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 14 minutes ago, FrantikRam said: And nobody will talk about it. If the Rams pass rush regresses to league average next year but Donald has 20 sacks, he still likely wins DPOY. That's fine with me since I don't like giving team success credit/blame to an individual player. But to me that would feel like a QB having Watson's season this year - and I'm fine with that too - we ignore the team result and identify that Watson is a top 5 QB despite the team only winning 4 games. In the context of a single year, sure. When you are looking at years worth of context, the calculus obviously changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 6 hours ago, NFL_Fan said: qb touches the ball every play on offense you dodo bird We don't call posters names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 4 hours ago, FrantikRam said: Right but my overall point is that people bring up wins and losses constantly, but I've rarely heard something like "JJ Watt is clearly declining because he's not elevating the Texans pass rush" - and Watt has more influence over the Texans pass rush than a QB has in winning or losing a game. Not to mention we sucked when we had Donald, prime pass rush Brokers and Quinn. For god sakes we held Brady to 13 points. We should have won that SB with a better offensive output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Forge said: We don't call posters names You’ve been spicy lately my love. Been busy keep doing the good work. Btw, not a diss. I know you’ll take it that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyguy1609 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 34 minutes ago, flyguy1609 said: Gross way too much for a guy who is breaking down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 51 minutes ago, flyguy1609 said: Wtf. Dudes body is dead lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 The guy was getting hit regularly and still played through injuries at a high level. He's a lumberjack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 4 hours ago, thebestever6 said: Gross way too much for a guy who is breaking down. The durability at his age is definitely one of the reasons I am not thrilled about this deal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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