Raiders sign DL Solomon Thomas (1 year, $5M)

[Jeremy408]

18 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I don't agree with this. I don't think we were rebuilding when Gruden initially came on board, I believe he saw a cornerstone on each side of the ball, a team one year removed from 12-4 and one he thought he could tinker with and find success. The Mack trade was initiated by a holdout situation that was badly handled and it all escalated from there IMO.

Totally agree with the second comment though regarding the 9ers 😀

The reason why people think Gruden ruined the an already good team It’s because they look at it from the standpoint the 2016 team was legit and wasn’t a fluke. But if you actually look at who they played in 2016 in comparison to who they played in 2017 you’ll see that in 2017 they played more playoff teams and less teams picking in the top 10 the next year. If you look back a few post ago I have a breakdown of all the teams they played both years. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Jeremy408

[Darbsk]

4 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

The reason why people think Gruden ruined the an already good team It’s because they look at it from the standpoint the 2016 team was legit and wasn’t a fluke. But if you actually look at who they played in 2016 in comparison to who they played in 2017 you’ll see that in 2017 they played more playoff teams and less teams picking in the top 10 the next year. If you look back a few post ago I have a breakdown of all the teams they played both years. 

Don't agree with the 'fluke' analysis. We played some really good football, looked like a team with belief and confidence and obviously if we're beating teams then they're less likely to make the playoffs whereas in 2017 if we're losing to teams they're more likely to make playoffs so that's kind of a circular argument IMO. I don't think we were quite as good as our record suggested but I actually think we should have been better than our 2017 record suggested too so this can cut both ways.

Gruden traded away the heart and souls of the D, a HoF calibre player and leader, alienated players like Irvin who were solid role players and totally unsettled the whole chemistry of the team. It became a rebuild from then on out but I don't think that was his intention at all to begin with - he actually referenced having franchise type players on both sides of the ball so I don't think he intended to trade Mack just mishandled the situation and tried to salvage something with a trade which led him into the rebuild.

[NCOUGHMAN]

6 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

The reason why people think Gruden ruined the an already good team It’s because they look at it from the standpoint the 2016 team was legit and wasn’t a fluke. But if you actually look at who they played in 2016 in comparison to who they played in 2017 you’ll see that in 2017 they played more playoff teams and less teams picking in the top 10 the next year. If you look back a few post ago I have a breakdown of all the teams they played both years. 

I actually agree with this almost forgot we lost to kc (the only playoffs team on our schedule) twice that year and still snuck in at 12-4. Crazy but I think it’s gonna take 12-4 to get back in the playoffs and I don’t think we’re built like that. 

[drfrey13]

9 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

 

Ok lets look at it(i'll put the teams that made it to the playoffs in bold and teams picking in the top 10 the following year in red)

2016 schedule

W-Saints 7-9(picked 11th in the 2017 draft and also had the same record as the bills)

L-Falcons 11-5

W-Titans 9-7

W-Ravens 8-8

W Chargers 5-11

L Chiefs 12-4 

W Jaguars 3-13

W Buccanneers 9-7

W Broncos 9-7

W Texans 9-7(infamous laser pointer game lol)

W Panthers 6-10

W Bills 7-9

L Chiefs 12-4 

W Chargers 5-11 

W colts 8-8

L Chargers 9-7

2017 schedule

W Titans 9-7

W jets 5-11

L WFT 7-9

L Broncos 5-11

L Ravens 9-7

L Chargers 9-7

W Chiefs 10-6

L Bills 9-7

W Dolphins 6-10

L Patriots 13-3

W Broncos 5-11 

W Giants 3-13

L Chiefs 10-6

L cowboys 9-7

L Eagles 13-3

L Chargers 9-7

 

Your thoughts? 

We were not as good as our record indicates in 2016 and I have been the one that has brought this up numerous times showing that Carr was not an MVP level player that year.  He was good but it was TO ratio that led to us being such a good team.  

We were not as bad talent wise as our record showed in 2017.  The team fell apart after the WFT game and Mark Davis has even addressed this in an interview.  It was the reason why JDR was let go and we brought in Gruden.  Gruden brought his own bag of issues but without the WFT game were Carr and JDR handled it completely wrong in my opinion is were the team quit.  We were a borderline playoff team in both years.  

You made a reference about SOS and I showed that the SOS was pretty much the same in both years.  We should have had 8-10 wins in both years.

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

We were not as good as our record indicates in 2016 and I have been the one that has brought this up numerous times showing that Carr was not an MVP level player that year.  He was good but it was TO ratio that led to us being such a good team.  

We were not as bad talent wise as our record showed in 2017.  The team fell apart after the WFT game and Mark Davis has even addressed this in an interview.  It was the reason why JDR was let go and we brought in Gruden.  Gruden brought his own bag of issues but without the WFT game were Carr and JDR handled it completely wrong in my opinion is were the team quit.  We were a borderline playoff team in both years.  

You made a reference about SOS and I showed that the SOS was pretty much the same in both years.  We should have had 8-10 wins in both years.

First paragraph couldn’t agree more. i’ve been saying that for years including 2016.
 

The second paragraph, I don’t think you can track up Delrio getting fired because he lost the locker room after one game because if that were true how did they beat the chiefs? I think we have to look at

1. His records as the raiders head coach. 

2. What he did to improve the defense(he has a Defense minded head coach who was recognized as a head coaching candidate again  for his work as a Broncos defensive coordinator)

Here is what he inherited: 

3-13

21st in yrds(16th against the pass; 22nd against the run) 22nd in points scored on

Let’s look at what he did

2015

7-9

22nd in yrds(26th against the pass; 13th against the run) 22nd in points scored on

2016

12-4 

26th in yrds(24th against the pass; 23th against the run) 20th in points scored on

2017

6-10

23rd in yrds(26th against the pass; 12th against the run) 20th in points scored on

when you look at it this way you can see one why JDR got fired and B why 2016 was a abnormal year because of the schedule which I previously showed

What if we judged Gruden by those same standards but this time his area of expertise which is offense

first what he inherited

2017

6-10

19th in yrds(16th passing; 25th rushing) 23rd in points scored 

now let’s see what he did

2018(we already mentioned the complete roster turnover)

4-12

23rd in yrds(18th passing; 25th rushing) 28th in points scored 

2019

7-9

11th in yrds(9th passing; 13th rushing) 24th in points scored 

2020

8-8

8th in yrds(7th passing; 14th rushing) 10th in points scored 

Thoughts?

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I actually agree with this almost forgot we lost to kc (the only playoffs team on our schedule) twice that year and still snuck in at 12-4. Crazy but I think it’s gonna take 12-4 to get back in the playoffs and I don’t think we’re built like that. 

Most people forget how easy that 2016 schedule was. Another misleading thing is that we played a handful  of middle of the pack teams that Had bottom 10 defenses so we were able to win shoot out against them. One example is how we played the Bucs who had the worst defense in the NFL. 

[Turnobili]

Carr was an MVP candidate because of all the game winning drives/4th quarter comebacks, not because of his overall statline or performance.

[Jeremy408]

5 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

Carr was an MVP candidate because of all the game winning drives/4th quarter comebacks, not because of his overall statline or performance.

I'll personally I love carr, consider him a franchise quarterback, and I don't think it makes any sense to get rid of him or trade for someone else. But being completely 100% honest and unbiased, a large reason why he was considered an MVP candidate in 2016 is because that season, he played a lot of teams picking in the top 10, teams that had really bad defenses or both. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I'll personally I love carr, consider him a franchise quarterback, and I don't think it makes any sense to get rid of him or trade for someone else. But being completely 100% honest and unbiased, a large reason why he was considered an MVP candidate in 2016 is because that season, he played a lot of teams picking in the top 10, teams that had really bad defenses or both. 

I broke down Carr’s comeback wins and most of them weren’t really impressive just the offense sputtering all game and finally waking up to win at the end. 

[Jeremy408]

3 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I broke down Carr’s comeback wins and most of them weren’t really impressive just the offense sputtering all game and finally waking up to win at the end. 

right. thats what i'm saying. I remember saying that entire year "if their schedule was just a little bit harder a lot of this wouldn'tve happened." And 2017 the schedule got harder and we saw what happened

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

Most people forget how easy that 2016 schedule was. Another misleading thing is that we played a handful  of middle of the pack teams that Had bottom 10 defenses so we were able to win shoot out against them. One example is how we played the Bucs who had the worst defense in the NFL. 

When was the last time you watched the Bucs game?  It was comical.  Worst game , most frustrating game, but still a very entertaining game to watch.  I have never seen two teams try to give a game away so many times.

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

First paragraph couldn’t agree more. i’ve been saying that for years including 2016.
 

The second paragraph, I don’t think you can track up Delrio getting fired because he lost the locker room after one game because if that were true how did they beat the chiefs? I think we have to look at

1. His records as the raiders head coach. 

2. What he did to improve the defense(he has a Defense minded head coach who was recognized as a head coaching candidate again  for his work as a Broncos defensive coordinator)

Here is what he inherited: 

3-13

21st in yrds(16th against the pass; 22nd against the run) 22nd in points scored on

Let’s look at what he did

2015

7-9

22nd in yrds(26th against the pass; 13th against the run) 22nd in points scored on

2016

12-4 

26th in yrds(24th against the pass; 23th against the run) 20th in points scored on

2017

6-10

23rd in yrds(26th against the pass; 12th against the run) 20th in points scored on

when you look at it this way you can see one why JDR got fired and B why 2016 was a abnormal year because of the schedule which I previously showed

What if we judged Gruden by those same standards but this time his area of expertise which is offense

first what he inherited

2017

6-10

19th in yrds(16th passing; 25th rushing) 23rd in points scored 

now let’s see what he did

2018(we already mentioned the complete roster turnover)

4-12

23rd in yrds(18th passing; 25th rushing) 28th in points scored 

2019

7-9

11th in yrds(9th passing; 13th rushing) 24th in points scored 

2020

8-8

8th in yrds(7th passing; 14th rushing) 10th in points scored 

Thoughts?

The circumstances you can debate but if you watch week 1 to week 17 it is undeniable that the team quit on JDR.  That was pretty widely recognized around the league.  Did Davis love Gruden and want to hire him before he fired JDR?  I am sure he did.  JDR had this team playing its best ball since they were in the SB.  Politics entered the equation and JDR was on a different side then the majority of the team.  The more you read into it there are other factors but that was one of the biggest and early factors.  The OC issue is another stupid JDR decision.

As far as Gruden is concerned he has improved but he is going to spend 5 years to get us back to the playoffs if we even make it.  If you believe Gruden has total control of the team then he deserves credit for he offense and blame for the defense.  If I was in control it would be Gruden focuses on offense and gives up personnel control on the defense.  I would also want a GM that is not a yes man to Gruden and is his actual boss.  If not Gruden can walk.  I said since we hired him that his ego is going to hold us back.  We will not build a SB contender until he can admit he needs help.

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

First paragraph couldn’t agree more. i’ve been saying that for years including 2016.
 

The second paragraph, I don’t think you can track up Delrio getting fired because he lost the locker room after one game because if that were true how did they beat the chiefs? I think we have to look at

1. His records as the raiders head coach. 

2. What he did to improve the defense(he has a Defense minded head coach who was recognized as a head coaching candidate again  for his work as a Broncos defensive coordinator)

Here is what he inherited: 

3-13

21st in yrds(16th against the pass; 22nd against the run) 22nd in points scored on

Let’s look at what he did

2015

7-9

22nd in yrds(26th against the pass; 13th against the run) 22nd in points scored on

2016

12-4 

26th in yrds(24th against the pass; 23th against the run) 20th in points scored on

2017

6-10

23rd in yrds(26th against the pass; 12th against the run) 20th in points scored on

when you look at it this way you can see one why JDR got fired and B why 2016 was a abnormal year because of the schedule which I previously showed

What if we judged Gruden by those same standards but this time his area of expertise which is offense

first what he inherited

2017

6-10

19th in yrds(16th passing; 25th rushing) 23rd in points scored 

now let’s see what he did

2018(we already mentioned the complete roster turnover)

4-12

23rd in yrds(18th passing; 25th rushing) 28th in points scored 

2019

7-9

11th in yrds(9th passing; 13th rushing) 24th in points scored 

2020

8-8

8th in yrds(7th passing; 14th rushing) 10th in points scored 

Thoughts?

Thoughts......... I don't think JDR was the greatest coach first up, though I did like him for his rapport with the players and wish he'd have kept Musgrave (not hindsight as I was vehemently opposed to getting rid of him at the time) but he took over a 3-13 team and in two years produced a 12-4 playoff team( the first in 14 years) that I personally think without the Carr injury would have won at least 1 playoff game (we did already beat the Texans and they were the easiest playoff game probably). 

Gruden came in with much fanfare, a record breaking contract and  'transformed' a 6-10 team into an 8-8 juggernaut and it only took 3 years, 3 full drafts with multiple first round picks in two, a raft of trades and 3 free agency periods. 

Expectations were higher for Gruden, granted. His offence is good to very good and he deserves credit for that but the D has been an embarrassment and that is with his hand picked DC and multiple high priced FAs and multiple first round defensive players. Underwhelming to say the least. JDR had lesser expectations for sure but for me, he at least lived up to expectations if not exceeding them. The real pain was the falloff in 2017 and some bad coaching changes he was culpable for. I would have given him another year to see if he could have turned it back round.

[Turnobili]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I'll personally I love carr, consider him a franchise quarterback, and I don't think it makes any sense to get rid of him or trade for someone else. But being completely 100% honest and unbiased, a large reason why he was considered an MVP candidate in 2016 is because that season, he played a lot of teams picking in the top 10, teams that had really bad defenses or both. 

i like Carr... and have even advocated for giving him an extension this offseason, but i have no delusions about what he is or isn't. most seasons he's going to be outside the top 10, but will generally be in the top 15.

[Jerry]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Thoughts......... I don't think JDR was the greatest coach first up, though I did like him for his rapport with the players and wish he'd have kept Musgrave (not hindsight as I was vehemently opposed to getting rid of him at the time) but he took over a 3-13 team and in two years produced a 12-4 playoff team( the first in 14 years) that I personally think without the Carr injury would have won at least 1 playoff game (we did already beat the Texans and they were the easiest playoff game probably). 

Gruden came in with much fanfare, a record breaking contract and  'transformed' a 6-10 team into an 8-8 juggernaut and it only took 3 years, 3 full drafts with multiple first round picks in two, a raft of trades and 3 free agency periods. 

Expectations were higher for Gruden, granted. His offence is good to very good and he deserves credit for that but the D has been an embarrassment and that is with his hand picked DC and multiple high priced FAs and multiple first round defensive players. Underwhelming to say the least. JDR had lesser expectations for sure but for me, he at least lived up to expectations if not exceeding them. The real pain was the falloff in 2017 and some bad coaching changes he was culpable for. I would have given him another year to see if he could have turned it back round.

If G. Bradley puts together a respectable defense I think we can hit double digit wins.  Guenther IMO, has slowed down progress completely.  We need a middle of the pack defense (at least).  Period.