The Pass "Rush" After 7 Games

[Spartacus]

15 minutes ago, Stevein2012 said:

4th OLB isn't the 2nd most important position though.  I don't have much problem going with him there.  Not ideal but it isn't an error that really moves the needle much to go with you 2nd year 3rd round OLB and your 2nd back up.  He's pretty far down the list to me of what's wrong with our defense this year.  If a mistake you can't afford involves your 4th OLB then something else went pretty wrong.

I honestly think a bigger mistake was relying on Clay Matthews like we have. He just doesn't have it anymore as a pass rusher something that our staff probably should have recognized over the last couple years. Minor gripe though as I thought most people would agree that a Perry Mathews combo would have been better than what they were showing on the field. 

[squire12]

8 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Again, I'll ask you as I did him.  What in the 160 snaps that Fackrell took last year indicated that there would be no development?

SO are you going to admit that Fackrell was not an ascending player in his 1st to 2nd year?   There was this discussion on how the young players were ascending with no evidence to make such a statement.

Counting on that was shortsighted.  The last draft class was deep at CB, not at EDGE.  Watt in the first and a CB later would have been a possible option.

[Spartacus]

8 minutes ago, squire12 said:

SO are you going to admit that Fackrell was not an ascending player in his 1st to 2nd year?   There was this discussion on how the young players were ascending with no evidence to make such a statement.

Counting on that was shortsighted.  The last draft class was deep at CB, not at EDGE.  Watt in the first and a CB later would have been a possible option.

Hindsight. Personally I didn't even really like Watt all that much as a prospect coming out and thought he was being overrated based on his combine and name and i'm a Badgers fan. Looking back now would I rather have Watt? Probably, but Kevin King has the chance to be a true shutdown corner if it clicks and that is even more valuable then what Watt would bring. Why is Fackrell such a touchy subject around here? He is our 4th OLB who we planned on only utilizing on spot duty. How many teams have a 4th OLB that's any good? Most can't find two good ones. The bigger issue I have with the pass rushers is the fact that I believe our front office should have known that Clay Matthews isn't an effective pass rusher anymore but still I don't know what else they could have done to address it. 

[RoellPreston88]

Julius Peppers has more sacks this season than Clay Matthews and Nick Perry combined 

[TheOnlyThing]

8 hours ago, TransientTexan said:

You’re the one that essentially made the opposite contention initially, so the burden of proof is on you. But unsurprisingly, you’re too lazy to do your own research and expect others to do it for you. All you will ever do is cherrypick one or two anecdotal situations that confirm your preconceived bias, and neglect any proper reference frame. 

Sorry Transient, I merely asked CWood several weeks ago if he had any objective evidence to back up his (and other TT die hard fans) oft-repeated claim "You look at [TT's] draft record and it stands up as well as anyone's."

Seemed like a simple request of someone who unequivocally and repeatedly states that TT is the best, or at least tied for the best, GM in the entire NFL when it comes to the draft and that anyone who questions TT's drafting greatness "goes against popular opinion." 

I even made the task of providing such evidence easier by agreeing that TT's drafting record was just fine during the first 6 years of his 13 year reign in Green Bay (2005-2010), so the focus could be on 2011 onwards.

That not one of TT's (shrinking pool of?) adoring followers has provided any evidence demonstrating TT's drafting prowess in comparison to other NFL GMs since 2011 over the past 6 years is telling. 

Now, if folks such as yourself want to continue to make the unsubstantiated claim that Ted Thompson has as good or better a record at drafting than anyone else since 2011, that is certainly your/their right. But please forgive me if I point out that said claim is based upon In Ted We Trust faith rather than facts.

[squire12]

25 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Hindsight. Personally I didn't even really like Watt all that much as a prospect coming out and thought he was being overrated based on his combine and name and i'm a Badgers fan. Looking back now would I rather have Watt? Probably, but Kevin King has the chance to be a true shutdown corner if it clicks and that is even more valuable then what Watt would bring. Why is Fackrell such a touchy subject around here? He is our 4th OLB who we planned on only utilizing on spot duty. How many teams have a 4th OLB that's any good? Most can't find two good ones. The bigger issue I have with the pass rushers is the fact that I believe our front office should have known that Clay Matthews isn't an effective pass rusher anymore but still I don't know what else they could have done to address it. 

Perry, Matthews and who was the 3rd OLB if Fackrell was the 4th OLB?   Was it Elliott?  Was it Brooks, he was not signed until after cut downs?  Was it Biegel, he was a 4th round pick?  

Fackrell was going to be counted on to play a good % of snaps with the departure of Peppers and D Jones. 

 

As for the hindsight comment, it looks that way now, but I was in the EDGE early and a CB later with a deep class.  They are both premium positions, both were needed.  

[Spartacus]

2 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Perry, Matthews and who was the 3rd OLB if Fackrell was the 4th OLB?   Was it Elliott?  Was it Brooks, he was not signed until after cut downs?  Was it Biegel, he was a 4th round pick?  

Fackrell was going to be counted on to play a good % of snaps with the departure of Peppers and D Jones. 

 

As for the hindsight comment, it looks that way now, but I was in the EDGE early and a CB later with a deep class.  They are both premium positions, both were needed.  

We signed Brooks and also drafted a mid round OLB. Its obvious that we didn't have much trust in Fackrell as a mainstay on this defense except in spot duty. You can't plan for injuries to your draft pick and your FA and I don't know how many snaps they expected Fackrell to initially get. My thought is not nearly as many as he is getting now due to injuries. 

Still, if TJ Watt had done nothing in this league so far this wouldn't even be a conversation. It just so happens that the fan favorite has looked pretty good and that is now a position of great need on the defense. Its unfortunate but I thought most would agree that corner was a huge need coming into this years draft. 

[squire12]

2 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

We signed Brooks and also drafted a mid round OLB. Its obvious that we didn't have much trust in Fackrell as a mainstay on this defense except in spot duty. You can't plan for injuries to your draft pick and your FA and I don't know how many snaps they expected Fackrell to initially get. My thought is not nearly as many as he is getting now due to injuries. 

Still, if TJ Watt had done nothing in this league so far this wouldn't even be a conversation. It just so happens that the fan favorite has looked pretty good and that is now a position of great need on the defense. Its unfortunate but I thought most would agree that corner was a huge need coming into this years draft. 

Both EDGE and CB were a need.  Both are premium positions.  EDGE was a much shallower draft pool, CB was deep.  For me, I wanted Watt at pick 29 and then a   CB later in round 2-3.  That was my stance then, so the hindsight comment is inaccurate, though I can see how you would assume that I am using hindsight.  I was happy with King as well and I think he will be a good player.

[Spartacus]

1 minute ago, squire12 said:

Both EDGE and CB were a need.  Both are premium positions.  EDGE was a much shallower draft pool, CB was deep.  For me, I wanted Watt at pick 29 and then a   CB later in round 2-3.  That was my stance then, so the hindsight comment is inaccurate, though I can see how you would assume that I am using hindsight.  I was happy with King as well and I think he will be a good player.

Yes, both are premium positions but we were lacking depth at OLB not starters. At the beginning of the year I don't think anyone thought that starting Mathews & Perry would have this lack of production. Plus the signing of Brooks and the drafting of Biegel mostly quelled the depth issues. Corner was a much more immediate concern coming into this draft. 

[Norm]

46 minutes ago, RoellPreston88 said:

Julius Peppers has more sacks this season than Clay Matthews and Nick Perry combined 

[Spartacus]

23 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

haha for sure. I think there was a lot of fans that thought our depth was not where it should be. I didn't know any fans that if told Mathews and Perry would be healthy for the majority of the year so far would have thought this kind of production would occur.... 

[Norm]

6 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

haha for sure. I think there was a lot of fans that thought our depth was not where it should be. I didn't know any fans that if told Mathews and Perry would be healthy for the majority of the year so far would have thought this kind of production would occur.... 

I'd give ALL the credit in the world if someone was pounding the table for these guys back and then saying SEE. They mostly weren't as far as I can tell looking back at the old threads. Peppers leaving at that age made sense. Hyde at his pay, etc. It sucks they go produce at areas we need help. No doubt. It's not making excuses or saying they weren't mistakes. I just think the guys who bring them up 15 times a week had their minds made up about this staff a long time ago. And they really can't win or get any credit from any of them. And now they get the massive benefit of hindsight.

[TransientTexan]

1 hour ago, TheOnlyThing said:

That not one of TT's (shrinking pool of?) adoring followers has provided any evidence demonstrating TT's drafting prowess in comparison to other NFL GMs since 2011 over the past 6 years is telling. 

The fact that you and your spoiled piss-and-moan crew have failed to provide evidence to the contrary is telling. But please forgive me if I point out that your claim is based upon "grass is greener" faith rather than facts.

[CWood21]

10 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Martinez totally flashed, just inconsistently, same with Clark. This year King, Jones and Jones have flashed. Fackrell did nothing, I had no confidence going into this year based on anything he showed last year. "Gee I hope he makes a 2nd year jump" is not a valid roster building technique at QB, LT or EDGE for any team that has any hopes of contending.

I disagree.  Martinez looked absolutely lost his rookie year.  Was that part of the rookie wall?  Maybe, but there wasn't anything that he did his rookie year that indicated to me he'd make the jump that he did this year.  Kenny Clark had flashes.  You expect your rookies to develop into better players by their sophomore years, and usually if those players don't develop from Y1 to Y2 then they probably won't.  The development between years is crucial.

[CWood21]

2 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

4th OLB isn't the 2nd most important position though.  I don't have much problem going with him there.  Not ideal but it isn't an error that really moves the needle much to go with you 2nd year 3rd round OLB and your 2nd back up.  He's pretty far down the list to me of what's wrong with our defense this year.  If a mistake you can't afford involves your 4th OLB then something else went pretty wrong.

I would assume he's referring to OLB3, since Fackrell was slotted to be that to open the preseason.