Week 3 GDT: Raiders (2-0) vs. Dolphins (1-1) - Dolphin sashimi is on the menu

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

10 hours ago, raidr4life said:

Yeah Im happy we won, i had to calm down some after the Raiders cost me $1000 on a 6 teamer 

Ouch. That sucks. That's why I don't gamble anymore.

[Mr Raider]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Agree once again, however one thing that really concerns me is that this very same tendancy to clam up and run, run, 3rd and long, punt with a small lead lost us games last year and it nearly did again. It's a trend and it WILL cost us games, it's happened several times and we've been lucky a few times. But we don't seem to be learning at all, just doing the same thing over and over.

Does anyone here think that was a good idea? Is there anyone here that thought we might do something else after the turnover on downs? I suspect everyone here knew exactly what was coming and thus so did the opposition which makes it easy to stop. It was absolutely crying out for playaction or a screen which is something we do well, Carr was in rhythm, Edwards, Renfrow and Waller have produced when we have counted on them this year so I just don't understand this infatuation with run up the gut for zero yards ploy, especially when the OL is really struggling. 

We're not learning from mistakes that we've been lucky have not cost us. Sooner rather than later they will cost us and we can all see it.

No I'm right there with you. And now that it's the next morning, I am all in on talking about what needs to be corrected. I was simply trying to get fans to take a second and appreciate the first 3-0 start in almost 20 years, regardless of how we got there. I think it's important to take a moment and be happy and live in the moment without worrying about context or what it means for the future from time to time. That said I agree, it is incredibly frustrating and honestly is my only major gripe with Gruden the head coach and play caller. I think Gruden has answered the questions that were often talked about when he first took over as the head coach the 2nd time about whether the game has passed him by, whether his offensive system could still be successful in the NFL today after so much time off. I think he's answered the questions on whether he can still be a top tier play caller in a general sense, and whether he can draw up a scheme to get the most out of the players he's given. Gruden has shown without a doubt that he is still one of the better offensive minds in the game when it comes to scheming an offense, being able to play to his guys strengths, about his ability for his offense to be a top 10 type of offense etc. Gruden the front office executive/team builder/GM is a whole different story. My biggest gripes overall with him are the subject we are talking about now and his ego driving him to sacrifice value in the draft, IMO due to his ego needing him to be the smartest guy in the room to get "his" guy he has tunnel vision on that fills the biggest need that played at one of the 4 or 5 powerhouse college's. Regardless if they could have been had later or if we could have received better value from a guy at a position we need less because we aren't talented enough to pass up significantly better talent regardless of position (within reason obviously).

The one question he hasn't answered for me or anyone else on this forum when it comes strictly to being an X's and O's play calling HC, is whether his approach to late game situations/putting the game out of reach is something he can admit, and work towards correcting. It has been a reoccurring theme literally since he came back. I legitimately wonder if that is a hold over from his first stint with the Raiders and in Tampa. Is it perhaps possible that back in the late 1990's through 2008 the much more conservative, play to chew clock, salt the game once you believe your team has taken over and have a more than one possession lead in the 4th quarter was a much more common, accepted, and successful head coaching decision? I legitimately do not know the answer, but to me there could be at least some merit to it. In the 1990's-2008 the game was much less pass friendly, offenses were much less potent and successful passing the ball, especially for larger chunk plays, so it may very well have been a strategy that worked to much more success than we are currently seeing back when offenses didn't orchestrate 80+ yard drives in a minute or two on a regular basis. 

Now, with that being said and me posing that question, that in no way is me giving him a pass, or saying that would be an acceptable excuse or reasoning for it. I am just genuinely curious to hear others opinion on if that is something he hasn't been able to adapt and evolve with today's NFL and if that may be a possible culprit or contributing factor. I actually believe that is at least part of it. And even though I am of the belief that is at least a contributing factor, I simply have a I don't care, it's no excuse, adapt or die mentality. Because like you say, it has been something that HAS already cost us games in the past, it is something that easily could have cost us yesterday against Miami, and if it is a continuous trend it will without a doubt cost us games later in the year. Particularly against teams with high level QB play and explosive offenses. Like I don't know, a couple teams in our division. 

It's incredibly frustrating to see it continue to happen. It is so obvious to every one of us here on the forum that most of us can predict the exact moment it will start to happen. My only hope is that Gruden can let his ego drive him in a positive manner in this aspect to get it corrected. Hopefully he sees all the time the conservative play not to lose nature has cost us wins in the past, how close it came to losing the game this week, and hopefully he sees what makes this team so good when things are firing is the aggressive, diverse, trusting the offensive players as a whole to step up and make plays. Perhaps someone Gruden trusts can say man, when you are calling your offense and dialing up plays with the intention to score on every drive this offense has shown the ability to be as good as almost any in the league. It's only when you take your foot off the gas and play to the clock instead of scoring points that the offense looks totally different. So regardless of the score or time coach it the same way as when you are trying to take a lead. I legitimately do not want to continue to see Gruden call games with a lead in the 4th quarter with the intention of holding on or playing not to lose. I want to see the Gruden we have seen regularly when trailing or in a close game. Call it to win the game. And come out of the game carrying your shield, or come back on it for trying to win even when we have a lead late. The minute being too aggressive and playing to the offenses strengths to put the game away costs us more than a couple of wins or lets a team back in it with turnovers or stopping the clock with a lot of time we can have a discussion if he has swung too far the other direction. And hope to find a middle ground. But I absolutely would rather lose because we had a lead late in the 4th and trusted Carr to keep the offenses foot on the gas and it bite us, than doing what Gruden has done for years now with the ultra conservative stuff. 

Lastly, we all know how reliant Gunther was on the prevent defense when we had a lead late in the 4th. Does anyone know if that has been a staple of Bradley's throughout his career? I know he never blitzes much. But there's still a significant gap between blitzing and soft prevent giving up 10-20 yards a play all the way down to the red zone. Is it something that has plagued him in other stops, or is it possible that is a style of play that Gruden also wants his DC to play with in those situations to combine with his conservative bleed the clock at the expense of offensive success to combine to take as much time as possible off the clock? Because those are the only times that this defense has looked anything like the Gunther led defense this season so far. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Mr Raider

[Blazer026]

I figured Drake got hurt after not seeing him on passing downs towards the end of the game. Did he? Or did he just get benched? 

[Mr Raider]

Now despite my hopes that somehow Gruden will see what we all see, can take all the past examples of it being a problem that has led to losses or wins that were so much closer than they had any right to be, and using that to help him grow and evolve to make strides to correct it going forward, I do not expect it to happen. For all the positive stuff he has done as a play caller and coach in terms of scheming a highly successful offense, the one area he can get no benefit of the doubt as a coach is the ultra conservative, play to bleed the clock, handcuffing your offense in the process nature. Simply because we have seen these problems countless times over the past 3+ years. I hope the light finally comes on and we see him get aggressive and trust Carr, Jacobs (when healthy), Waller, Ruggs, Edwards etc to keep scoring points and eventually the other team will admit defeat or the lead will just become legitimate insurmountable (instead of the 9-14 point leads with 8-12 minutes left in the 4th that anyone can see is not too much for an NFL team to overcome if they can make stops). 

Until that unlikely day comes the only solace I can take in this reoccurring problem is that our team has a lot of experience in that department, they will be extremely battle tested when it comes to games with ridiculous swings in momentum with numerous lead changes, so they should have more comfort than a lot of other teams needing a drive or two to win a game they already had a handle on winning and let the other team come back. That and we have a QB that has the 8th most 4th quarter comeback wins among active players, a QB that has the most 4th quarter comebacks in NFL history through a players first 7 years, and has proven to be incredibly clutch late in games throughout his career when the rest of the team plays well enough to keep the game competitive late and give him the ball with a chance to win. 

That and that Grudens play calling and conservative nature has let teams hang around and come back and make games close that shouldn't have been at times, but that very same play calling and nature has also led to this team closing the door and sealing a victory when Jacobs has been at full strength. The final 4 minutes of the Chiefs win last year is a good example, as well as I believe the Saints and Browns games last season. So perhaps when Jacobs is back and 100% a little bit of the burden of Grudens lack of aggressiveness can pay off simply because Jacobs is good at picking up hard yards and converting for first downs to extend drives. That obviously won't work all the time, but hopefully if Gruden can't adapt and be better in that department Carr being great in crunch time and Jacobs being able to spearhead a conservative game plan to keep picking up first downs and bleed the clock dry will overcome it and secure wins more often than Gruden can let them slip through our grasp. 

[Mr Raider]

10 minutes ago, Blazer026 said:

I figured Drake got hurt after not seeing him on passing downs towards the end of the game. Did he? Or did he just get benched? 

I didn't see anything or see any of the beat writers mention that he was hurt. So nothing officially says he was to this point. It's always possible we will hear something on that front today. I think it may have just been a case of Barber playing well in the 2nd half and even had that big catch and run that they decided to roll with the back that had some level of success, particularly because they wanted to try and lean on the interior running game so heavily. 

I hope he isn't hurt. I still think when Jacobs is healthy is when we will see the best of both Jacobs and Drake when paired together. The problem is when Drake has ever been asked to be the lead guy and bell cow type of back he has had less success than when he's had another guy or two that could let him play strictly to his strengths, and Jacobs has had ups and downs but in both seasons hasn't been able to stay healthy over an entire season when being the bell cow RB. 

I still think Jacobs is going to have a big year for us. And I have been one of his most vocal supporters when it comes to defending his much less explosive 2nd season saying that fell far more on the OL ravished by injuries, and probably some him being slowed by injuries himself. But I'd be lying if I said that even I am growing frustrated with how consistently he needs to miss games here or there or when he does play being less than 100% to the point it visually effects him so much. Because as good as the offense has looked (primarily passing the ball) we are still going to need Jacobs and Drake to be productive for us. Some games are just going to have to rely on a tough, grind it out type of win. Hopefully holding him out these past couple games allows him to be 100% this week and going forward. Because I have concerns about how long this offense can maintain being so pass heavy and so inconsistent running the ball and continue to have so much success. 

If Drake did suffer an injury though it'll just be that much more important to have Jacobs back. Barber played well in the 2nd half and could provide a good enough change of pace for Jacobs. But if we are down Jacobs and Drake and Barber has to be the guy with Ragas or a free agent seeing significant work as his backup it spells bad news for the running game getting going IMO. 

[Nightmare]

28 minutes ago, Blazer026 said:

I figured Drake got hurt after not seeing him on passing downs towards the end of the game. Did he? Or did he just get benched? 

There was a point where Carr got sacked in the 4th quarter and based on the reactions of both Carr and Gruden, someone missed a key block. I haven’t gone back and watched it and so could be way off here, but I think it might have been Drake. Might explain why we didn’t see him again, but it would be a strange time for a statement benching.

[BackinBlack]

I love hunter renfrow. Such a beast. 

[RaidersAreOne]

7 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

I love hunter renfrow. Such a beast. 

Absolutely. All our young WR's have been impressing. I read somewhere we have 3-4 players on pace to eclipse 1,000 yards receiving? If that's true that's pretty remarkable. 

[Darbsk]

1 hour ago, Mr Raider said:

No I'm right there with you. And now that it's the next morning, I am all in on talking about what needs to be corrected. I was simply trying to get fans to take a second and appreciate the first 3-0 start in almost 20 years, regardless of how we got there. I think it's important to take a moment and be happy and live in the moment without worrying about context or what it means for the future from time to time. That said I agree, it is incredibly frustrating and honestly is my only major gripe with Gruden the head coach and play caller. I think Gruden has answered the questions that were often talked about when he first took over as the head coach the 2nd time about whether the game has passed him by, whether his offensive system could still be successful in the NFL today after so much time off. I think he's answered the questions on whether he can still be a top tier play caller in a general sense, and whether he can draw up a scheme to get the most out of the players he's given. Gruden has shown without a doubt that he is still one of the better offensive minds in the game when it comes to scheming an offense, being able to play to his guys strengths, about his ability for his offense to be a top 10 type of offense etc. Gruden the front office executive/team builder/GM is a whole different story. My biggest gripes overall with him are the subject we are talking about now and his ego driving him to sacrifice value in the draft, IMO due to his ego needing him to be the smartest guy in the room to get "his" guy he has tunnel vision on that fills the biggest need that played at one of the 4 or 5 powerhouse college's. Regardless if they could have been had later or if we could have received better value from a guy at a position we need less because we aren't talented enough to pass up significantly better talent regardless of position (within reason obviously).

The one question he hasn't answered for me or anyone else on this forum when it comes strictly to being an X's and O's play calling HC, is whether his approach to late game situations/putting the game out of reach is something he can admit, and work towards correcting. It has been a reoccurring theme literally since he came back. I legitimately wonder if that is a hold over from his first stint with the Raiders and in Tampa. Is it perhaps possible that back in the late 1990's through 2008 the much more conservative, play to chew clock, salt the game once you believe your team has taken over and have a more than one possession lead in the 4th quarter was a much more common, accepted, and successful head coaching decision? I legitimately do not know the answer, but to me there could be at least some merit to it. In the 1990's-2008 the game was much less pass friendly, offenses were much less potent and successful passing the ball, especially for larger chunk plays, so it may very well have been a strategy that worked to much more success than we are currently seeing back when offenses didn't orchestrate 80+ yard drives in a minute or two on a regular basis. 

Now, with that being said and me posing that question, that in no way is me giving him a pass, or saying that would be an acceptable excuse or reasoning for it. I am just genuinely curious to hear others opinion on if that is something he hasn't been able to adapt and evolve with today's NFL and if that may be a possible culprit or contributing factor. I actually believe that is at least part of it. And even though I am of the belief that is at least a contributing factor, I simply have a I don't care, it's no excuse, adapt or die mentality. Because like you say, it has been something that HAS already cost us games in the past, it is something that easily could have cost us yesterday against Miami, and if it is a continuous trend it will without a doubt cost us games later in the year. Particularly against teams with high level QB play and explosive offenses. Like I don't know, a couple teams in our division. 

It's incredibly frustrating to see it continue to happen. It is so obvious to every one of us here on the forum that most of us can predict the exact moment it will start to happen. My only hope is that Gruden can let his ego drive him in a positive manner in this aspect to get it corrected. Hopefully he sees all the time the conservative play not to lose nature has cost us wins in the past, how close it came to losing the game this week, and hopefully he sees what makes this team so good when things are firing is the aggressive, diverse, trusting the offensive players as a whole to step up and make plays. Perhaps someone Gruden trusts can say man, when you are calling your offense and dialing up plays with the intention to score on every drive this offense has shown the ability to be as good as almost any in the league. It's only when you take your foot off the gas and play to the clock instead of scoring points that the offense looks totally different. So regardless of the score or time coach it the same way as when you are trying to take a lead. I legitimately do not want to continue to see Gruden call games with a lead in the 4th quarter with the intention of holding on or playing not to lose. I want to see the Gruden we have seen regularly when trailing or in a close game. Call it to win the game. And come out of the game carrying your shield, or come back on it for trying to win even when we have a lead late. The minute being too aggressive and playing to the offenses strengths to put the game away costs us more than a couple of wins or lets a team back in it with turnovers or stopping the clock with a lot of time we can have a discussion if he has swung too far the other direction. And hope to find a middle ground. But I absolutely would rather lose because we had a lead late in the 4th and trusted Carr to keep the offenses foot on the gas and it bite us, than doing what Gruden has done for years now with the ultra conservative stuff. 

Lastly, we all know how reliant Gunther was on the prevent defense when we had a lead late in the 4th. Does anyone know if that has been a staple of Bradley's throughout his career? I know he never blitzes much. But there's still a significant gap between blitzing and soft prevent giving up 10-20 yards a play all the way down to the red zone. Is it something that has plagued him in other stops, or is it possible that is a style of play that Gruden also wants his DC to play with in those situations to combine with his conservative bleed the clock at the expense of offensive success to combine to take as much time as possible off the clock? Because those are the only times that this defense has looked anything like the Gunther led defense this season so far. 

Some really interesting points there and as I think we're of a similar vintage then I'm trying to remember back to Gruden's last stint coaching the Raiders and how he'd finish games and I legitimately can't really remember. When we had those few years of success with him before Bill Callaghan took over I can't honestly say I remember being all nervous watching games whilst he went all conservative with Gannon........I don't remember that being the case. Maybe he was aggressive and it burned him big in a particular game that I don't really recall. I'd probably say this is a newer type trait but that's only because I'm probably viewing that era with rose tinted glasses 😁. I think he's kind of said or intimated that he doesn't really place that much belief in analytics so I don't think it would be that.

It would be interesting if someone actually had a better recollection or could pinpoint a game or two that swung on these types of things. 

[Geezy]

36 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Absolutely. All our young WR's have been impressing. I read somewhere we have 3-4 players on pace to eclipse 1,000 yards receiving? If that's true that's pretty remarkable. 

Carr don’t throw to his WRs 

[Mr Raider]

21 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Some really interesting points there and as I think we're of a similar vintage then I'm trying to remember back to Gruden's last stint coaching the Raiders and how he'd finish games and I legitimately can't really remember. When we had those few years of success with him before Bill Callaghan took over I can't honestly say I remember being all nervous watching games whilst he went all conservative with Gannon........I don't remember that being the case. Maybe he was aggressive and it burned him big in a particular game that I don't really recall. I'd probably say this is a newer type trait but that's only because I'm probably viewing that era with rose tinted glasses 😁. I think he's kind of said or intimated that he doesn't really place that much belief in analytics so I don't think it would be that.

It would be interesting if someone actually had a better recollection or could pinpoint a game or two that swung on these types of things. 

Yeah I can't remember either. At that point I was a 10ish year old kid watching games with my grandpa cheering the Raiders on, so even if it was a theme it's not something I picked up on at that age. I just knew we were a good team and won a lot of games and how we got there at that point in my life wasn't something I had the understanding of to really analyze like that. 

I can see it just generally being a mind set from the previous era. It makes sense at least theoretically. Before so many teams had guys capable of throwing for 300+ and 3 TDs and the league being so full of great pass catching talent combined with all the rule changes recently that give the passing offenses such a distinct advantage I imagine the amount of times teams were able to mount an 80+ drive once or even twice in the final 2-4 minutes was significantly lower than what we see today. But that is just my gut going off of how I remember the league as a younger kid and the way everyone talks about how much the game has evolved into a passing league, and the stark statistical surge in passing efficiency over the past 15 years or so. 

I'm going to do some digging and see if I can find anything to support the idea of coaches being more conservative late in games with a lead offensively as a whole during that time frame, and see if I can find anything to suggests this is a theme that has carried over from Grudens first stint here and in Tampa. Or if this is something that is totally new to the Gruden 2.0 Raiders era. Off the top of my head I do remember Gruden and the Bucs being criticized pretty heavily when he was coaching Tampa when they gave up that huge comeback to Manning and the Colts on MNF (may have been SNF). Because I live in Indiana I remember the conversations after the game the discussion on whether the Colts won the game or the Bucs lost it. And a conservative offensive nature that underestimated how quickly Manning and company could put up points was a significant talking point after that game. But that's strictly a one game sample size going largely off of memory at the time. 

I'll keep you posted if I find anything noteworthy about coaches play calling approaches in similar situations around the time Gruden was here the first time, and if there is anything that points to this being a constant problem for Gruden himself his entire head coaching career. 

[Darbsk]

2 minutes ago, Mr Raider said:

Yeah I can't remember either. At that point I was a 10ish year old kid watching games with my grandpa cheering the Raiders on, so even if it was a theme it's not something I picked up on at that age. I just knew we were a good team and won a lot of games and how we got there at that point in my life wasn't something I had the understanding of to really analyze like that. 

I can see it just generally being a mind set from the previous era. It makes sense at least theoretically. Before so many teams had guys capable of throwing for 300+ and 3 TDs and the league being so full of great pass catching talent combined with all the rule changes recently that give the passing offenses such a distinct advantage I imagine the amount of times teams were able to mount an 80+ drive once or even twice in the final 2-4 minutes was significantly lower than what we see today. But that is just my gut going off of how I remember the league as a younger kid and the way everyone talks about how much the game has evolved into a passing league, and the stark statistical surge in passing efficiency over the past 15 years or so. 

I'm going to do some digging and see if I can find anything to support the idea of coaches being more conservative late in games with a lead offensively as a whole during that time frame, and see if I can find anything to suggests this is a theme that has carried over from Grudens first stint here and in Tampa. Or if this is something that is totally new to the Gruden 2.0 Raiders era. Off the top of my head I do remember Gruden and the Bucs being criticized pretty heavily when he was coaching Tampa when they gave up that huge comeback to Manning and the Colts on MNF (may have been SNF). Because I live in Indiana I remember the conversations after the game the discussion on whether the Colts won the game or the Bucs lost it. And a conservative offensive nature that underestimated how quickly Manning and company could put up points was a significant talking point after that game. But that's strictly a one game sample size going largely off of memory at the time. 

I'll keep you posted if I find anything noteworthy about coaches play calling approaches in similar situations around the time Gruden was here the first time, and if there is anything that points to this being a constant problem for Gruden himself his entire head coaching career. 

Ah, I was little bit older then......... I remember watching the Superbowl we lost to Tampa on my brand new VHS video recorder that I bought with my first decent pay cheque from work. I'd taped the match as it was on really late over here and watched it the following day, seems like so long ago now!  

I think it was a little different era then and probably still 3000 yards a season was a benchmark for QBs. I do think we had the thunder and lightning of Garner and Wheatley in those days and were probably able to grind out those wins if need be but it would be very interesting to see numbers wise if there was any difference with closing games out as there was surely a bigger emphasis on the run. 

That Colts game is one I'd totally forgotten and it might well be something like that that has left an indelible mark and colours what Gruden does today. It really is curious as he's so engrossed and gas some really good concepts in his attacking portfolio but then just goes all kinds of vanilla when it counts. I look forward to seeing what you dig up my friend 😀

[Jeremy408]

Just saying: Solomon Thomas is somehow leading the team in Sacks rn 😂

[SimonGruber]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Just saying: Solomon Thomas is somehow leading the team in Sacks rn 😂

I thought he was a bum Straight up go Solomon happy to eat crow 

[oakdb36]

2 hours ago, Nightmare said:

There was a point where Carr got sacked in the 4th quarter and based on the reactions of both Carr and Gruden, someone missed a key block. I haven’t gone back and watched it and so could be way off here, but I think it might have been Drake. Might explain why we didn’t see him again, but it would be a strange time for a statement benching.

It was Drake and it was on the final offensive play by the Raiders in the 4th. He missed the blitz pickup on 3rd down. I don't think he played in OT but i'm not sure if it was situational or a benching.