Positional Needs Heading into the Offseason

[e16bball]

1 hour ago, MikeT14 said:

I feel like it's been explained ad nauseum. See plenty of @Thaiphoon's messages. I'm not stressing over $6ish million per year dead cap. 

I’m not sure where the “per year” part is coming from. Are you saying that would be if we June 1 cut him to spread out the dead cap?

We’ve gone through the whole exercise with the June 1 cuts this year because of Collins. They’re basically worthless because the cap space doesn’t become available until that date. No one needs a massive influx of cap space in June, so it’s relatively pointless.

If they restructure him, and they decide to pull the plug after one season, it will be a pretty big problem. $13-15M in dead cap sitting on your books isn’t the end of the world, but it will be pretty limiting. 

[MikeT14]

1 minute ago, e16bball said:

I’m not sure where the “per year” part is coming from. Are you saying that would be if we June 1 cut him to spread out the dead cap?

We’ve gone through the whole exercise with the June 1 cuts this year because of Collins. They’re basically worthless because the cap space doesn’t become available until that date. No one needs a massive influx of cap space in June, so it’s relatively pointless.

If they restructure him, and they decide to pull the plug after one season, it will be a pretty big problem. $13-15M in dead cap sitting on your books isn’t the end of the world, but it will be pretty limiting. 

Which is money that will get moved again and again. Misspoke on the 6. It is 13. Still not sweating it. We're under a rookie QB and in trouble anyway if and when this doesn't work out. It was laid out though. It really won't be overly limiting. We see it every year. 

[Slappy Mc]

If our young defense added Tyrann Mathieu and Bobby Wagner, I would say it would probably return to form from 2020. Obviously that's not going to happen, but a guy can dream. 

 

[MacDog]

8 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I’m not sure where the “per year” part is coming from. Are you saying that would be if we June 1 cut him to spread out the dead cap?

We’ve gone through the whole exercise with the June 1 cuts this year because of Collins. They’re basically worthless because the cap space doesn’t become available until that date. No one needs a massive influx of cap space in June, so it’s relatively pointless.

If they restructure him, and they decide to pull the plug after one season, it will be a pretty big problem. $13-15M in dead cap sitting on your books isn’t the end of the world, but it will be pretty limiting. 

Often big name veterans who don't want to go to camp in the dog days of summer will wait until August to sign, so the post June 1st cut is fine.

I am specifically thinking of a Bobby Wagner or Vander Esch type of player for this.

Additionally you can roll over some cap room to next season as well, which is also meaningful if you have a long term view of things.

Edited March 14, 2022 by MacDog

[lavar703]

2 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

I feel like it's been explained ad nauseum. See plenty of @Thaiphoon's messages. I'm not stressing over $13ish million* added to future years.

*edit

And I’ve consistently said excusing away $15M pushed into the future because we screwed up isn’t a good thing. 

[RSkinGM]

Jarvis Landry released - only 29, hhhmmm 

[MikeT14]

25 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

And I’ve consistently said excusing away $15M pushed into the future because we screwed up isn’t a good thing. 

So take the lump now or later. Your call. 

[e16bball]

57 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

Which is money that will get moved again and again. Misspoke on the 6. It is 13. Still not sweating it. We're under a rookie QB and in trouble anyway if and when this doesn't work out. It was laid out though. It really won't be overly limiting. We see it every year. 

I mean…like I said, it’s not the end of the world. 

But $13-15M isn’t chump change. The Ghost of Wentz would have the 3rd highest cap hit on the roster, behind Jonathan Allen and William Jackson. And for that matter, if William Jackson doesn’t play better this season, the Ghost would have the 2nd-highest cap hit. 

$13-15M is the year one cap hit of a superstar contract. It’s the year one cap hit of two good starters. It’s really not “nothing.” Which is all I’m saying. Having to eat that dead cap would preclude us from adding something (or some things) that could really help us win. 

56 minutes ago, MacDog said:

Often big name veterans who don't want to go to camp in the dog days of summer will wait until August to sign, so the post June 1st cut is fine.

I am specifically thinking of a Bobby Wagner or Vander Esch type of player for this.

Additionally you can roll over some cap room to next season as well, which is also meaningful if you have a long term view of things.

Do you have some examples of big name veterans who were good, cost-effective signings after June 1 that required opening up $13M in space on that date?

Last year, for example, I’m seeing that the top guys available/signed after that date were Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, KJ Wright, and Richard Sherman. Certainly big names. But mostly old, washed-up stopgaps at this point in their career. Houston played fine for Baltimore and Ingram flashed some with KC late in the year — after Pittsburgh gave up on him and dumped him for nothing.

I just don’t think there’s much benefit to opening up a bunch of cap space at that point in the year. Not when it comes at the cost of further limiting you in March/April, and not when it means you’ll have to carry half of the dead cap number into the next season. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze — just take your medicine in March and be done with it. 

[MikeT14]

3 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I mean…like I said, it’s not the end of the world. 

But $13-15M isn’t chump change. The Ghost of Wentz would have the 3rd highest cap hit on the roster, behind Jonathan Allen and William Jackson. And for that matter, if William Jackson doesn’t play better this season, the Ghost would have the 2nd-highest cap hit. 

$13-15M is the year one cap hit of a superstar contract. It’s the year one cap hit of two good starters. It’s really not “nothing.” Which is all I’m saying. Having to eat that dead cap would preclude us from adding something (or some things) that could really help us win. 

If we're cutting him, we're in a bad position and need to reset at QB again anyway. Which to me means we won't be using all the cap money that we need. Circle the wagons around a reset/reload again. 

[MacDog]

35 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

If we're cutting him, we're in a bad position and need to reset at QB again anyway. Which to me means we won't be using all the cap money that we need. Circle the wagons around a reset/reload again. 

Even as a fan of the trade, there is no denying that if he ends up blowing we are screwed and Ron is gone.

So it makes sense to make the best of it and re-do the deal and increase the chances of doing good with more talent on the team via the freed up cap room.

But you know, optimism is a crime here. Better to be cool and edgy and hate on everything, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[MikeT14]

7 minutes ago, MacDog said:

Even as a fan of the trade, there is no denying that if he ends up blowing we are screwed and Ron is gone.

Right. We'd have to do another reset. Which, to me, makes the cap part of it less important than other factors. 

[lavar703]

20 minutes ago, MacDog said:

Even as a fan of the trade, there is no denying that if he ends up blowing we are screwed and Ron is gone.

So it makes sense to make the best of it and re-do the deal and increase the chances of doing good with more talent on the team via the freed up cap room.

But you know, optimism is a crime here. Better to be cool and edgy and hate on everything, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Optimism isn't a crime here. I just don't agree that Wentz is going to recapture the magic. He hasn't been good for quite some time now and expecting that to change on one of the worst run franchises in football seems to defy logic. If he's great I'll be just as happy as those that love the trade and I'll say I was wrong. I've never had an issue doing so. But I won't sit here and act happy about a trade I think was foolish. 

[MKnight82]

1 minute ago, lavar703 said:

Optimism isn't a crime here. I just don't agree that Wentz is going to recapture the magic. He hasn't been good for quite some time now and expecting that to change on one of the worst run franchises in football seems to defy logic. If he's great I'll be just as happy as those that love the trade and I'll say I was wrong. I've never had an issue doing so. But I won't sit here and act happy about a trade I think was foolish. 

But to say the trade was foolish I think you need to present what was a better option for them?  I can't see one.  This draft class sucks. The top QBs didn't want to come here, and of the remaining veteran options I'd argue Wentz was the most talented.  

[MikeT14]

Let's see how guard goes. Scherff to the Jags. 

[lavar703]

1 minute ago, MKnight82 said:

But to say the trade was foolish I think you need to present what was a better option for them?  I can't see one.  This draft class sucks. The top QBs didn't want to come here, and of the remaining veteran options I'd argue Wentz was the most talented.  

I don't believe the QB class sucks and that's where we differ. I don't like Malik Willis as a prospect at all but I think Pickett and Howell can be extremely good. I would much rather roll with Heinecke and a QB at 11 than pay Wentz and give up multiple draft choices. That's my opinion of things. We played a much tougher schedule and ended up two games behind the Colts. I just don't see Wentz as much of an upgrade. Old Wentz? Absolutely. The Wentz that we just got isn't the old Wentz though.