Pass me that wrench: Fixing the D in 2022

[SteelKing728]

What do you guys think we can get for a trade if we deal Hunter?

[wcblack34]

28 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

What do you guys think we can get for a trade if we deal Hunter?

For a guy coming off two injuries and commanding a top-of-the-market contract? Couple of conditional 2nds. Maybe a late 1st. 

[PrplChilPill]

30 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

For a guy coming off two injuries and commanding a top-of-the-market contract? Couple of conditional 2nds. Maybe a late 1st. 

I wouldn't deal him for that, no way. 

[swede700]

The best thing they could do is work on a legitimate extension with Hunter, unlike what they did last year to just push it back, so they could relieve some of the cap pressure this year from his number, which is $26M.  Next year, they should be in a little better cap situation (depending upon what they do with Kirk). as the only notable free agent other than Kirk is Irv Smith (who right now won't garner much in a new deal since he hasn't done anything yet).

[vike daddy]

O’Connell:  “I think from a base standpoint you can look at it that way.  But I think somebody threw out the stat to me the other day, with everybody really living in 11 personnel [one running back, one tight end] nowadays, I think depending on the defense you talk to, 81 percent of the time they’re in nickel defense, which essentially is just a 4-3 with a nickel in the game instead of — a fifth DB, I should say, in the game instead of a third linebacker. A lot of times a big thing . . . is being multiple with your fronts because I know as an offensive coach if we know where you’re going to be, we know where you’re going to line up, that makes it pretty easy at least to design things to attack angles, understand how you want to run the ball, how you want to protect, but when you’re changing that picture and forcing opponents to deal with multiple fronts during a game, during a drive in some cases, that can be a real weapon for a defense, pairing that with some really good things on the back end, that’s kind of what we’re hunting.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/18/kevin-oconnell-envisions-a-3-man-defensive-front-for-the-vikings/

[vike daddy]

O'Connell: "I definitely have a vision of what I want the defense to look like and play like. First and foremost, the core characteristics of playing good defense, which is guys flying around, a great tackling group. We're going to force turnovers with how we play from a scheme standpoint, but that's an effort thing. That's playing with great effort, sustaining that, finishing plays, making it about the football. That's part of our core football philosophy; number one, first and foremost, it's all about the ball. I think you lose games turning it over as an offense in this league before you ever give yourself a chance to win them. But defensively, the greatest defenses in this league not only stop people but they take the ball away, and that'll be a huge part of what Ed and our defensive staff tries to build from day one here."

https://www.vikings.com/news/kevin-oconnell-press-conference-intro-takeaways?fbclid=IwAR2TaLfAXUUW-b3tO-Pl9L_Fay8Rz84veFs5sICgk3xD1Q-PfAwqlsL88QM

[SteelKing728]

I remember when Zimmer was first hired, our focus on the DL was to stop then run first to then force teams to pass. From 2014-2019, we had very strong defensive play before it all fell apart.

Does that philosophy still hold any water, or is outdated thinking with the way offenses have evolved?

[swede700]

Stopping the run, as far I'm concerned, is still probably the most important aspect, because, as was seen in the Super Bowl, the offenses weren't all that explosive because of both teams' inability to run the ball.  Mixon was able to certainly run the ball a little better than the Rams, but it still wasn't all that great, and at the end of the game, Perine was unable to convert on short yardage situation.  

For me, I still like an effective running game, because it speeds the game up.  I think these pass-first offenses have made the game longer...at least seem so, if not evidenced in real time (as I don't have those figures), because of all the stoppages of the clock on incomplete passes.  

[RpMc]

Passing is the most efficient way to move the ball down the field and get it immediately in to space.

You have to be able to limit the run, but a lot of defensive philosophy today is meant to take away the pass and make teams go on 12-15 play drives if they’re gonna score. 

[CriminalMind]

Take away the pass, not by elite CB/S, but by elite DL. 

#dont.draft.DB.in.1st

[gopherwrestler]

16 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

Take away the pass, not by elite CB/S, but by elite DL. 

#dont.draft.DB.in.1st

I have a couple thoughts on this.....
My only issue with saying elite CB/S is the word "elite".

I think there is plenty of times that a CB can make a huge difference if they are elite. Honestly, when we could throw Rhodes on an island, that wasn't purely the D-Line that was doing it. He was dang good there for a bit. And doing a lot himself.

The other side of this.... A ELITE pass rusher, can help all around the whole field, not just on one side of the field like a CB. You find an edge rusher he is always helping the CB, LB, and safeties with constant pressure.

The issue with this is, value..... is there going to be a value at #12, could you find the right value on moving up? could you find the trade partner for the value to move down?

[battle2heaven]

So my defensive philosophy is that your secondary is only as good as your third best cb. What I mean by this is, I don't think you need truly ELITE ELITE CBs; you just need 3 decently competent ones; especially if you have a front 7 that can get consistent pressure. Elite CBs are nice, but teams can always gameplan around that and target your most vulnerable.

So what I'm getting at is that I appreciate it when teams build their defense from the front, up. Let's invest a bit more in that D line. Let's get some decent rushers in here.

[wcblack34]

2 hours ago, battle2heaven said:

So my defensive philosophy is that your secondary is only as good as your third best cb. What I mean by this is, I don't think you need truly ELITE ELITE CBs; you just need 3 decently competent ones; especially if you have a front 7 that can get consistent pressure. Elite CBs are nice, but teams can always gameplan around that and target your most vulnerable.

So what I'm getting at is that I appreciate it when teams build their defense from the front, up. Let's invest a bit more in that D line. Let's get some decent rushers in here.

Assuming Hunter comes back healthy, we have a solid group of rushers and there is plenty of good depth at EDGE/DE in this draft. We have nothing at CB. Right now, our secondary is as good as Cameron Dantzler. That should friggin' terrify people. While I understand the allure of pairing Hunter with another elite guy, QBs can get the ball out in less than 3 seconds on most passing plays. You need guys that can cover for at least that long, preferably longer, and we don't have anyone who can do so consistently. 

There is a huge benefit to having a Jalen Ramsey, Revis, Xavier (in his prime) guy who can lock down his side of the field. If Stingley or Gardner are there at 12, I think their value is far more than that 2nd tier of EDGE/DEs that are likely to also be available. 

[viking]

3 hours ago, battle2heaven said:

So my defensive philosophy is that your secondary is only as good as your third best cb. What I mean by this is, I don't think you need truly ELITE ELITE CBs; you just need 3 decently competent ones; especially if you have a front 7 that can get consistent pressure. Elite CBs are nice, but teams can always gameplan around that and target your most vulnerable.

So what I'm getting at is that I appreciate it when teams build their defense from the front, up. Let's invest a bit more in that D line. Let's get some decent rushers in here.

Not sure this is true to be honest I think elite defenses have elite corners more often than not.

If you have a defense that has an elite corner that erases the opposing number 1 receiver you can shift the rest of your coverage to help out on the WR2 & 3 (Think Revis Island).

Last year the Vikings had a patchwork passrush but still managed to come 6th in the league in sacks. We had a patchwork secondary and looked like burnt toast even against bad QBs.

 

Looking forward to next year for the Vikings I feel like we've got a lot more upside to be excited about on the D-line than we do at DB.

 

Dline: Wonnum, Robinson, Jones & Watts all have potential to contribute in a big way

DB: Bynum and maybe Cam Dantzler ?

 

PFF always preaches coverage over pass rush when building a defense, I'd imagine that as Kwesi comes from an analytics background he would tend to agree with their approach to building a team.

[swede700]

Let's just say, as the roster exists right now (obviously, it'll change with free agency and the draft, but what would be the starting defense?

LDE:

NT:

RDE:

OLB (Joker):

ILB (Will):

ILB (Mike):

OLB (Sam):

CB1:

SS:

FS:

CB2: