2022 draft prospects general discussion

[dll2000]

Watching some clips of Daniels on TTNL against Packers.  I can't say I am super impressed.   

[Madmike90]

3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I always liked Daniels at C, but he hasn’t played there in 2 years now, so there’s some risk in that too. I go back and forth on Daniels - at times last year he looked great, but he was also took 9 penalties last year to Whitehair’s 5. Take for what you will, but their PFF rankings were very similar (71 for Daniels, 66 for Whitehair). Both were mainstays from that group of OL that repeatedly wasn’t helping Fields up after he got it last year too, and it’s possible Poles doesn’t want either here.

Saving $8M in 2022 on Whitehair being a post-6/1 cut is enough to sign Jensen to a long term deal to play C for you cap-wise and you get a clear upgrade over both incumbents, and I would go even further and sign both Jensen and Cappa to upgrade (IMO) at both spots with 2 IOL who already have chemistry with each other. In this hypothetical you’re drafting the other OG and starting Jenkins and Borom at OT, which would give us an entirely young OL except for Jensen (entering age 31 season), all of whom are under multi-year deals. Continuity and talent should be the goal, and this would give us that. 

With all of that said, we can’t forget that to cut Whitehair you’re doing so as a post-6/1 cut, so you don’t actually realize the cap savings until 6/2. Other cuts we’re looking to do (Trevathan and Goldman, specifically) are also likely to be post-6/1, so while it’s probably not an issue in this hypothetical you’d need to keep cognizant that we may not be able to make official some moves until later. 

I don't think we will or should invest that sort of money in a 31 year old like Jensen...I love the player...but we aren't one player away on that OL...If we could retain Daniels and sign an vet guard/centre for that same sort of money I feel long term that is a far better investment...I also doubt the Bucs lose both Jensen & Cappa...they might lose neither now that they have freed up some money.

[Madmike90]

2 hours ago, blkwdw13 said:

If Daniels is really requesting and expecting to want $10 mil then I wouldn’t bring him back for that. 

I doubt Daniels gets anything like $10 million a season...I suspect something like 4 year $30 million.

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I always liked Daniels at C, but he hasn’t played there in 2 years now, so there’s some risk in that too. I go back and forth on Daniels - at times last year he looked great, but he was also took 9 penalties last year to Whitehair’s 5. Take for what you will, but their PFF rankings were very similar (71 for Daniels, 66 for Whitehair). Both were mainstays from that group of OL that repeatedly wasn’t helping Fields up after he got it last year too, and it’s possible Poles doesn’t want either here.

Saving $8M in 2022 on Whitehair being a post-6/1 cut is enough to sign Jensen to a long term deal to play C for you cap-wise and you get a clear upgrade over both incumbents, and I would go even further and sign both Jensen and Cappa to upgrade (IMO) at both spots with 2 IOL who already have chemistry with each other. In this hypothetical you’re drafting the other OG and starting Jenkins and Borom at OT, which would give us an entirely young OL except for Jensen (entering age 31 season), all of whom are under multi-year deals. Continuity and talent should be the goal, and this would give us that. 

With all of that said, we can’t forget that to cut Whitehair you’re doing so as a post-6/1 cut, so you don’t actually realize the cap savings until 6/2. Other cuts we’re looking to do (Trevathan and Goldman, specifically) are also likely to be post-6/1, so while it’s probably not an issue in this hypothetical you’d need to keep cognizant that we may not be able to make official some moves until later. 

I just don't have the confidence in Daniels to re-sign him to a significant deal. If we could get a $5-6 mil per year deal then I guess I'm down but I highly doubt he goes for that. In the open market I think he can get $8-9mil at minimum. 

He has skill and movement ability but I want mean guys. If you think you can develop that nastiness in him then I'm more for re-signing him. 

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

I just don't have the confidence in Daniels to re-sign him to a significant deal. If we could get a $5-6 mil per year deal then I guess I'm down but I highly doubt he goes for that. In the open market I think he can get $8-9mil at minimum. 

He has skill and movement ability but I want mean guys. If you think you can develop that nastiness in him then I'm more for re-signing him. 

Poles knows OL play.   I don't think he is going to be super enamored with what Daniels put on tape.

I am watching him now and seeing more bad than good.  

He gets bullied 1 v 1 a lot.   I see him getting hit first.  I see little movement 1v1 from him unless backwards counts.  

 He doesn't have a feel for the double team and climb or space in his zone.   I keep seeing guys move right past him and disrupt or make a tackle while he is helping someone who doesn't need it.    Idea of zone blocking is still hat on a hat - you don't want to stay on doubles unless you are parking someone in someone else's lap and effectively blocking him anyway.   But a double team on a dude who holds is ground and you stay on him?  That's a defensive win, because you created an unblocked defender in the hole.  He does this a lot.  

When he is in open space he doesn't move efficiently from point A to B.  He takes bad angles to defenders.  

Then I am watching him make an outstanding chip and move to second level block and he ruins it by not staying with it.

Green Bay was creative in that they were holding the zone blocks so guys had trouble climbing.   That absolutely ruins zone schemes if refs don't call it.

 

 

[WindyCity]

Daniels was really bad at C when he played there.

I have no idea what is going to happen on the OL. Seems like a lot could happen, but we also aren't stacked with resources and options.

[dll2000]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I don't think we will or should invest that sort of money in a 31 year old like Jensen...I love the player...but we aren't one player away on that OL...If we could retain Daniels and sign an vet guard/centre for that same sort of money I feel long term that is a far better investment...I also doubt the Bucs lose both Jensen & Cappa...they might lose neither now that they have freed up some money.

 

I think Jensen radically transforms this Oline for better.   But if rookies from last year don't take a step up at book ends it will still be bad.   If they are our starting OTs going into season, I would say there is some uncertainty there even though I believe they have physical talent.   

 Get rid of Daniels and sign Jensen.   Bring back Peters as 6th man blocker specialist and emergency back up OL instead of primary one.  

You need to find a guard who can play and at least one more decent veteran OT for depth which will be hard. 

I would say Ifedi - but man, fans and Bears media are really down on him at moment because of Jenkins thing.   I still think he has plus physical talent and has had some good stretches of play.   Maybe good coaching changes things for him.  But Bears may need some new blood.  Not sure Ifedi can handle that kind of negative attention to start.  

I have a feeling we have a good man in Poles to make those calls.

 

 

[StLunatic88]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:49 AM, Madmike90 said:

I doubt Daniels gets anything like $10 million a season...I suspect something like 4 year $30 million.

I think you are severely underestimating what young, talented and versatile OL get on the open market

Im digging more into Daniels right now, but I think you have to sift through the bad line play around him the past few years. Id be surprised if Poles doesnt see the talent still there, and he is the exact type of lineman needed if we are looking to implement a Shanahan style offense. Especially as a Center

[Madmike90]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

I think you are severely underestimating what young, talented and versatile OL get on the open market

Im digging more into Daniels right now, but I think you have to sift through the bad line play around him the past few years. Id be surprised if Poles doesnt see the talent still there, and he is the exact type of lineman needed if we are looking to implement a Shanahan style offense. Especially as a Center

I don't feel based on what he has done so far you could possibly give him $10 million a year...yes there has to be projection...but there also has to be production and that hasn't been there...if he gets $10 from somewhere then let them overpay not us.

[StLunatic88]

17 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I don't feel based on what he has done so far you could possibly give him $10 million a year...yes there has to be projection...but there also has to be production and that hasn't been there...if he gets $10 from somewhere then let them overpay not us.

Again, I think you underestimate the derth of Offensive Line talent in the NFL these days. Especially talent that fits the mold of what you need in a Shanny-style Lineman. 

You have a big, athletic and talented interior lineman on the roster, who while has been admittedly underwhelming, has also been jerked around in an offense without a real identity (one that in its best iteration doesnt really fit what he is) you dont just let that guy walk. 

Also a $10m AAV does not mean you'll actually be paying him that per year. A young guy like him getting a deal mostly on projection, is likely looking at a pie in the sky final year. IF you give him a 4 year $40m deal, and that final year is $15m (via roster bonus' and such) its not $10m AAV in reality. Even if he got a $8m signing bonus (probably high), leaving $2m on the Cap for year 4, Its actually a 3 year $27m deal, which is exactly what Connor McGovern got from the Jets 2 years ago. 

And if constructed correctly, if its a complete disaster, you can likely get out of it pretty easily after 2 years. Assuming hes only getting like a $6m signing bonus, you cut him after year 2, and all youre really committing is about $17m.

You have to take some chances on young talent, especially when you have limited draft capital. This would be a good gamble to take

[Madmike90]

7 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Again, I think you underestimate the derth of Offensive Line talent in the NFL these days. Especially talent that fits the mold of what you need in a Shanny-style Lineman. 

You have a big, athletic and talented interior lineman on the roster, who while has been admittedly underwhelming, has also been jerked around in an offense without a real identity (one that in its best iteration doesnt really fit what he is) you dont just let that guy walk. 

Also a $10m AAV does not mean you'll actually be paying him that per year. A young guy like him getting a deal mostly on projection, is likely looking at a pie in the sky final year. IF you give him a 4 year $40m deal, and that final year is $15m (via roster bonus' and such) its not $10m AAV in reality. Even if he got a $8m signing bonus (probably high), leaving $2m on the Cap for year 4, Its actually a 3 year $27m deal, which is exactly what Connor McGovern got from the Jets 2 years ago. 

And if constructed correctly, if its a complete disaster, you can likely get out of it pretty easily after 2 years. Assuming hes only getting like a $6m signing bonus, you cut him after year 2, and all youre really committing is about $17m.

You have to take some chances on young talent, especially when you have limited draft capital. This would be a good gamble to take

I'm aware how the contract would work...I am also aware that he isn't worth that money...like I said if someone else wants to pay that then so be it but no way I pay him that much...

Teams like the 49ers take guys like Tom Compton, Colton McKivtz & Daniel Brunskill and make them solid starters...this scheme is easier for the OL than any other...spending huge money on Daniels would be a bad move.

[AZBearsFan]

7 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I'm aware how the contract would work...I am also aware that he isn't worth that money...like I said if someone else wants to pay that then so be it but no way I pay him that much...

Teams like the 49ers take guys like Tom Compton, Colton McKivtz & Daniel Brunskill and make them solid starters...this scheme is easier for the OL than any other...spending huge money on Daniels would be a bad move.

I think our GM and Asst. GM both being former OL should help a lot here. It’s not just adding talented players - it’s adding players who fit what you want to do too, and I’d argue the latter may be more important unless you’re talking about top tier OL talent that transcends scheme. Poles should understand better than most what is optimal skill set wise from our OL depending on what we’re going to be doing scheme wise. I was never super enthralled with Daniels, but we may have also not been putting him in as favorable of a position to excel under Nagy as we will under the new system. I hate turning to blind trust on these things, but I think we have the right guys in place at the top of the personnel department to get the right pieces in place along the OL. 

[Madmike90]

1 minute ago, AZBearsFan said:

I think our GM and Asst. GM both being former OL should help a lot here. It’s not just adding talented players - it’s adding players who fit what you want to do too, and I’d argue the latter may be more important unless you’re talking about top tier OL talent that transcends scheme. Poles should understand better than most what is optimal skill set wise from our OL depending on what we’re going to be doing scheme wise. I was never super enthralled with Daniels, but we may have also not been putting him in as favorable of a position to excel under Nagy as we will under the new system. I hate turning to blind trust on these things, but I think we have the right guys in place at the top of the personnel department to get the right pieces in place along the OL. 

I don't think anyone can argue that Poles & Cunningham add a great ability to judge linemen...I just hope they back themselves to find talent up front rather than overpaying for anyone.

[dll2000]

I think it is all true.

Daniels is talented, has underachieved and been victim of bad coaching.

Makes him a tough call.   One of those guys you let go and could become really good somewhere else or you could resign and he continues to underachieve.

I was super excited about him in draft.  His college tape was outstanding and his rookie year showed a ton of promise plus he was a young 21 so you assumed he was going to take some big leaps physically still.

First thing that bummed me out was Pace moving him to guard right after draft.   I wanted him at C.  

Second thing was huge drop off in his 2nd year and regression of this technique and fundamentals.

Third thing is he hasn't taken the physical leaps I expected.   He may be one of those guys that matured early and didn't have that giant room for growth.

I have a facebook friend that I played HS football with.  He was 6'2 and 240 lbs in 8th grade and really fast.  Everyone thought he was going to be an NFL all pro in middle school.    As a high school senior he was still 6'2 and 240.   He just physically matured fast.   You see it a lot.

It actually really helps those kids athletically because they get encouragement and reinforcement and coaching attention because people are excited about their potential and they personally are excited too so they spend a lot of time practicing and training from an early age.

   

 

 

[HuskieBear]

34 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I think it is all true.

Daniels is talented, has underachieved and been victim of bad coaching.

Makes him a tough call.   One of those guys you let go and could become really good somewhere else or you could resign and he continues to underachieve.

Most recent poster boy I can think of is Laken Tomlinson. 1st round pick of the lions, underachieves for 2 years, gets sent off to SF for like a 6th, then turns into a rock solid guard for 3 years. He should cash in this offseason