2022 draft prospects general discussion

[Heinz D.]

10 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Competition?

So, we should sign, and/or draft, a lot more OTs?

Move WR, CB, S, LB, and DT to the back burner?

Strikes me as bad team building, right there. 

You can't do everything in one off-season. It's probably best to follow the normal methods of team building right now. Rather than go off on some weird tangent that the Chicago media are on because of a single statement by Poles. 

[Sugashane]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:27 PM, Heinz D. said:

What strategy are you advocating for, then? 

Sorry man, just saw this.

Just looking at who has been underperforming per their contracts and cutting fat is what I want. I want to re-sign our picks, but I don't want to re-sign guys just because of consistency if they aren't consistently good. I am working on a mock so I won't get too into it but here is the nuts and bolts of what I think we should be doing.

We can both agree that Mustipher is not a starter and maybe not even real depth I believe. Having him as a depth, even one that doesn't dress on Sunday when the OL is healthy, is fine to me though. Him playing better than terrible in 2020 should not have guaranteed him a starting role. That was a major issue I had with Pace and Nagy's work on the OL. 

I think it is also fair to say the highs from Jenkins and Borom completely outshadow what Mustiper brought to us too. Whitehair has not performed anywhere near what he has been paid since 2019. But cutting him pre-June 1st means we would actually lose another $200K to also have his spot voided, so he is staying.  2023 we can save almost $6 mil by cutting him if he doesn't take a major step forward. Borom and Jenkins are guys that I am high on. Few rookies come out killing it and Jenkins had to come back from zero activity to go against guys who had TC, preseason, and 2/3 of the season. He was knocking off nearly a year of rust as a rookie while vets were in full swing. Borom was streaky but for where he was drafted looks like a steal. That being said he needs to at least have to beat a player out for a starting role, but at the bare minimum he is a swing tackle or starting at OG.

Daniels has never been really consistent. To be the 10th highest paid OG (by average) he would get paid just over $10 mil per year, to be the 15th highest he would be paid just over $7.5 mil. He isn't worth that at all to me. Move on and hope someone else overpays for him, and this will change since there are other guys like Scherff, Norwell, Corbert, etc that are FAs and will get bigger deals than him too.

Peters was the best player overall but if we are trying to get speed on the OL (and youth) he just doesn't have it. He doesn't have the mobility in space or anything, so if we have him I would want him to move in to OG. He is still a mauler.

Ifedi was crap as an OT, that experiment failed. If he wants to be competition at OG then I'm fine with that but the $4+ mil deal was a really bad one. It's under $2 mil or walk away for me.

So at the moment we have Jenkins and Borom to build around, Whitehair is on basically a do or die deal, and we have two other spots open for starters. These are the only 3 guys I have as guaranteed spots on the roster.

For depth we have Mustipher for cheap as an ERFA but even then he needs to earn his spot. Bring in 2 draft picks, 2 vets, and keep a good eye on waiver cuts and cap casualties. You get the best OL you can - lets say one FA and one draft pick. If the FA turns out to be a RT then Borom kicks into OG, and the rook is an OG. IF that is how it works out then Whitehair becomes the C. If you get a really good C in FA then Whitehair is the OG. He is not a likely long-term piece so he gets plugged in wherever it is more beneficial for the other 4 starters. The Bears are in a spot to recreate their OL over the next two years, so don't stick with the players that have proven to have low ceilings.

 

I think one FA and one higher pick would be fine, and then you can put more focus on WRs, DBs, etc. There are always cheaper bodies for LB and DTs that can be used as patchwork, especially since you may sub one LB out for over 50% of the snaps in Nickel. We already have some depth at the DL with 3 EDGE, a NT for heavy formations in Tonga, Blackson, etc.

 

[Heinz D.]

2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

So at the moment we have Jenkins and Borom to build around, Whitehair is on basically a do or die deal, and we have two other spots open for starters. These are the only 3 guys I have as guaranteed spots on the roster.

Exactly.

At the moment, no need to worry about replacing the tackles, until they prove they can't do it. And I doubt that happens. 

A new center is a must...even if it isn't a particularly good one, that still beats the hell out of Mustipher. And if good possibilities present themselves, I'm not against replacing the guards, either. But I'd rather keep Daniels than Whitehair. 

[dll2000]

15 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Exactly.

At the moment, no need to worry about replacing the tackles, until they prove they can't do it. And I doubt that happens. 

A new center is a must...even if it isn't a particularly good one, that still beats the hell out of Mustipher. And if good possibilities present themselves, I'm not against replacing the guards, either. But I'd rather keep Daniels than Whitehair. 

I think you are correct, I like their physical talent (Jenkins and Borom). 

But I am also thinking odds of them both being good or adequate as full time starters is probably lower than even so a reasonable quality veteran OT competition and/or depth is a must.   Particularly with a back issue for Jenkins.

Mustipher is not an NFL caliber starter.   He lacks athletic ability to do it.  I think he is good enough to be an emergency player and be on a roster, but when I know someone's ceiling and the ceiling is below average player or liability I tend to lean toward moving on from him.   We had this discussion with Holtz.   My feelings would be similar here.  

 Daniels I would let walk due to likely price.   His play is really inconsistent and I am seeing red flags in what I want mentally in a player.   I don't know of course not actually knowing him or coaching him, but red flags are there for me.   It's too bad, I think he is talented and underachieved thus far.   I admit I loved him coming out of college.   He is still young and can turn it around.   

You can't get rid of everyone so Whitehair stays, he is at least an average guard most of time and has shown stretches of being really good in his career.

 

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

55 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I think you are correct, I like their physical talent (Jenkins and Borom). 

But I am also thinking odds of them both being good or adequate as full time starters is probably lower than even so a reasonable quality veteran OT competition and/or depth is a must.   Particularly with a back issue for Jenkins.

Mustipher is not an NFL caliber starter.   He lacks athletic ability to do it.  I think he is good enough to be an emergency player and be on a roster, but when I know someone's ceiling and the ceiling is below average player or liability I tend to lean toward moving on from him.   We had this discussion with Holtz.   My feelings would be similar here.  

 Daniels I would let walk due to likely price.   His play is really inconsistent and I am seeing red flags in what I want mentally in a player.   I don't know of course not actually knowing him or coaching him, but red flags are there for me.   It's too bad, I think he is talented and underachieved thus far.   I admit I loved him coming out of college.   He is still young and can turn it around.   

You can't get rid of everyone so Whitehair stays, he is at least an average guard most of time and has shown stretches of being really good in his career.

Keeping Whitehair gives you flexibility in FA or the draft with adding the best C/OG too, because he’s a capable starter at both spots. I think Daniels would be a pretty decent C if we put him there and just left him there, but since that’s happened so infrequently there’s more projection to it. 

[AZBearsFan]

It’s of obvious benefit to us re: Jenkins and Borom that KC and Poles were also looking to revamp their OL last year. Poles would have done extensive work on both (certainly on Jenkins) during last year’s draft cycle. He should already have strong opinions about what they bring to the table and how (and where) he projects each of them long term. 

[abstract_thought]

Keep Daniels. Cut Whitehair. He is aging and has not played at a high level for a few years now. Daniels is younger, cheaper, and has more upside.

In FA I would look for a veteran who can play either G or OT because you need insurance in case Jenkins continues to struggle in pass pro.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

18 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

It’s of obvious benefit to us re: Jenkins and Borom that KC and Poles were also looking to revamp their OL last year. Poles would have done extensive work on both (certainly on Jenkins) during last year’s draft cycle. He should already have strong opinions about what they bring to the table and how (and where) he projects each of them long term. 

What an excellent point.  I would still love to know what's coming out of meetings on the OL, as I could see approaches ranging from acquiring 4 new starters to just a FA center.  My ideal would be buy a G and C, draft another OT. I don't think we can afford to FA an OT. 

[dll2000]

16 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Keeping Whitehair gives you flexibility in FA or the draft with adding the best C/OG too, because he’s a capable starter at both spots. I think Daniels would be a pretty decent C if we put him there and just left him there, but since that’s happened so infrequently there’s more projection to it. 

I think if Bears had put him at C as a rookie and left him there to sink or swim his whole career is different.  Same with Whitehair at G versus C.  

I think a major failing of Pace/Nagy wasn't as much identifying talent as it was their young player development plans.  

I get the thinking.   But it is too clever by half.   He was thinking Daniels plays G and learns C by watching.   But in reality it isn't way it works.  In reality he is 20 year old NFL rookie and is trying his darndest to figure out G and his job at G.    If he is playing G, he is thinking zero about playing center.  

Then you move him to C and he has to try to figure that out.  And C is much harder than G.

If you say you are C, you played C in college and he has to figure C out from jump and is expending 100% of energy on that with whole offseason, it is a whole different ball game.   You didn't protect him at all, which was goal.  You set him back and he never regained it.

I do say you start OTs at OT and then move them to G as situation dictates.   But that is a value added approach which I think is worth it.  Because OT is much more valuable than G and OTs are typically a better class of athlete than Gs overall.

 

[dll2000]

37 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Keep Daniels. Cut Whitehair. He is aging and has not played at a high level for a few years now. Daniels is younger, cheaper, and has more upside.

In FA I would look for a veteran who can play either G or OT because you need insurance in case Jenkins continues to struggle in pass pro.

Maybe.  I didn’t realize they were going to be comparable in price.  

[beardown3231]

23 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

So, we should sign, and/or draft, a lot more OTs?

Move WR, CB, S, LB, and DT to the back burner?

Strikes me as bad team building, right there. 

You can't do everything in one off-season. It's probably best to follow the normal methods of team building right now. Rather than go off on some weird tangent that the Chicago media are on because of a single statement by Poles. 

Again you're being dense

Nobody said allocate every asset to the OL. They said improve it and do so by getting competition in there. I don't think giving Jenkins and Borom their jobs is the best idea. I also don't think- or I didn't think- anyone thinks they should use high draft picks and millions of dollars on OT's (unless they plan on moving 1 of the 2 to OG). 

You can find a solid swing tackle for 4-5M a year as competition/depth. I don't think that's putting any other need on the back burner

[abstract_thought]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Maybe.  I didn’t realize they were going to be comparable in price.  

Whitehair’s cap hits over the next 3 seasons: 12.3M, 14.1M, 13.2M. He’s being paid like a top 10 IOL in football.

You could bring his cap number down by restructuring his deal, but that means extending him into his mid 30s or adding void years during Fields’ 5th year (presumably the peak of the Bears’ competitive window).

Neither option seems smart. To me Daniels played better last season and has more upside.

[Heinz D.]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Again you're being dense

Wouldn't be the first time.

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Nobody said allocate every asset to the OL. 

Ummm...okay?

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

They said improve it and do so by getting competition in there. I don't think giving Jenkins and Borom their jobs is the best idea. I also don't think- or I didn't think- anyone thinks they should use high draft picks and millions of dollars on OT's (unless they plan on moving 1 of the 2 to OG). 

So, you bring in competition for both would-be starting tackles, the center, and at least one guard, then? Am I reading this right? 

This wouldn't be allocating every asset to the OL...but it would be close. 

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

You can find a solid swing tackle for 4-5M a year as competition/depth. I don't think that's putting any other need on the back burner

That move makes sense. Get a decent swing guy on board, someone who could take Wilkinson's place, maybe become a starter if need be. I'd be down with that. 

[Sugashane]

7 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Maybe.  I didn’t realize they were going to be comparable in price.  

The thing is if you cut Whitehair you pay his full cap AND then another $200K (pre-June 1st) on top of it, then still have to replace him. That is why I can't see him being on another team in 2022. But in 2023 you save about $5.8 mil by cutting him. We should keep him because he can play C or G and let us get the best players we can and patch him in the open spot. Then in 2023 we try to replace him at a far more affordable click.

If we are going to pay Daniels we can still work it around. Lets say he somehow gets a 5 year, $40 mil deal with $20 mil guaranteed we can structure it like 4/8/9/9/10. His cap hit in 2022 won't restrict us and when Whitehair is gone we can use his saved cap towards Daniels deal, and will have the full slew of draft picks. And from Daniels' side he gets $4 mil for his game pay but gets $10 mil of his guaranteed up front so he is still cashing in. Win-win for him and the Bears.

That being said since I think less of him than others I would prefer to make an offer to a top OG or C and go from there. Step up the deal and get a premier OL to build around and help mentor Jenkins and Borom. 

 

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

So, you bring in competition for both would-be starting tackles, the center, and at least one guard, then? Am I reading this right? 

This wouldn't be allocating every asset to the OL...but it would be close. 

I actually think we could do it with a pretty affordable effort but need to be realistic. We aren't getting 3 top FA options starting OL in their prime. Maybe 1 established top FA, one journeyman with upside (think like the Hicks move, might overpay if he doesn't pan out but the ceiling is there), and one aging vet. Or take a higher upside swing with injury concerns for a flier too.

Assuming we don't break the bank for Scherff, Brown, or Jensen we could still go on to sign some talented players

Tomlinson was solid for SF and is 30. Ben Jones is a guy who is 32 and played really well for TEN, he could be a solid vet to throw in. Alex Cappa could be the young guy as he is only 27 and has some serious upside. And Connor Williams is the other guy to build around, he can get the highest deal as he is also only 24.

Lets say we just go for two young guys and pay bigger deals for Cappa and Williams.

Cappa could get a 5 year $50 mil deal and go 4/9/11/12/14

Williams could get 5 years and $60 mil and go 6/11/12/12/14

 

Now we go into 2022 with Jenkins - Williams - Whitehair - Cappa - Borom at the OL and then sign cheaper guys like Peters or Dennis Kelly to be the swing tackle since they will be cheaper (lets say $3 mil ) and then use one pick on a guy to groom at C for 2023 who acts as swing interior OL.

So for 2022 these moves count as 4+6+3+1 (generic rookie guess) = $14 mil to revamp the entire OL. Plus we can restructure Whitehairs base salary without extending him and that can save us $4.6 mil (per spotrac). So these moves cost us a total of $10 mil and signing the ERFA deal for Mustipher as the 8th OL. In 2023 the deals get more expensive but you can cut off the cap hits from Whitehair, Leno, Dalton, Foles, and so on. Banks quite a bit on Jenkins and Borom for the next two seasons but I am pretty comfortable with that.

Really it wouldn't be too hard to go into FA with over $60 mil in cap space even with extending Smith. Take out the $10 for the OL and we have plenty to make moves elsewhere. Hopefully Poles takes advantage of the strength of the draft class for WRs and CBs by trading back to acquire more assets and even doubling down on these spots if so.

[Heinz D.]

18 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I actually think we could do it with a pretty affordable effort but need to be realistic. We aren't getting 3 top FA options starting OL in their prime. Maybe 1 established top FA, one journeyman with upside (think like the Hicks move, might overpay if he doesn't pan out but the ceiling is there), and one aging vet. Or take a higher upside swing with injury concerns for a flier too.

If you cut Whitehair, and don't re-sign Daniels...that broadens your options quite a bit. But I'm not at all sure I'm comfortable with that. If there is a big time CRAZY plan in place...that makes it at least somewhat more palatable...but obviously carries quite a bit of risk with it. 

18 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Assuming we don't break the bank for Scherff, Brown, or Jensen we could still go on to sign some talented players

That's the thing, right there. I think Jensen could be signed for a reasonable amount. Scherff wouldn't be--but he'd be quite the addition. You have to rearrange a bunch of stuff if Scherff becomes a Bear. 

The big picture thing to keep in mind is that whatever Poles said about the offensive line--that's not the only thing the offense is missing. It's one thing for Poles to say that, and another for the Chicago football media to become obsessed with it...but the reality is that we need WRs and TEs, as well. As I said before--hard to fix everything in one off-season.