Stafford versus Rivers

[Soko]

4 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

I genuinely don't understand how this is a discussion. There was literally never a point in their respective careers that Stafford was seen as a better QB than Rivers. It makes absolutely no sense to argue that Stafford's career cumulatively is better, because he's now had one great season.

Because Detroit. Or something.

[Jakuvious]

22 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

The team you're on is huge. Monumentally huge.

When Rivers took over, he took over a team with a ton of talent who had just been to the playoffs with a good coach.

Stafford was drafted by the Lions. 

Ironically, when some of us pointed out how much better a supporting cast he has in LA, people said "Megatron". But it's not just about the WR - it's about the culture, the coaches, the GM, the training staff AND the 52 other guys.

Stafford has 4 playoff wins now. Rivers had five his entire career. Stafford has more game winning playoff drives than Aaron Rodgers.

He has a ring.

All of that validates the come back wins in Detroit.

I'm not sure how he and Rivers is even a conversation now.

 

 

Also, right now he's seen as better than Rivers. He led a game winning super bowl drive.

Rivers is retired. Yes, Stafford is better than a retired QB would be. The entire time they were in the league, you would never have found a QB ranking with Stafford over Rivers. Their entire career. People knew Stafford's supporting cast was a problem, and still, no one ever thought Stafford was better than Rivers when they were peers. Rivers made 8 pro bowls. Stafford made one. This was not even remotely a discussion before this year. This was not a close comparison, before this year, or even before this post season. One year does not override two 10+ year careers. Everything you're listing has happened literally in the last two months. This is the absolute worst kind of reactionary take.

[AngusMcFife]

16 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

The team you're on is huge. Monumentally huge.

When Rivers took over, he took over a team with a ton of talent who had just been to the playoffs with a good coach.

This is a bit misleading. Rivers took over a 9-7 team and turned it into a 14-2 team. Then after the Chargers stupidly fired Schottenheimer they had Norv Turner, Mike McCoy, and Anthony Lynn as HCs. You really think Rivers had great coaching over the course of his career? 14/15 years he had mediocre to bad HCs. 

Quote

Stafford was drafted by the Lions. 

Ironically, when some of us pointed out how much better a supporting cast he has in LA, people said "Megatron". But it's not just about the WR - it's about the culture, the coaches, the GM, the training staff AND the 52 other guys.

Yeah, I'd be willing to wager that the LA Rams coaches, GM, training staff in LA in 2021 are far superior than anything that Rivers had. McVay averages 11 wins every year and is considered the golden boy of HCs. Stafford stepped into a team primed for a super bowl run, provided good QB play, and had a nice 4 game stretch. Very commendable.

But Rivers was a really putting up top-5 QB production for many years. That's much harder to do than have a nice 4-game stretch. For instance, Joe Flacco had a way better 4-game stretch than Stafford, but is not close to Rivers in terms of ability.   

 

[FrantikRam]

59 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Rivers is retired. Yes, Stafford is better than a retired QB would be. The entire time they were in the league, you would never have found a QB ranking with Stafford over Rivers. Their entire career. People knew Stafford's supporting cast was a problem, and still, no one ever thought Stafford was better than Rivers when they were peers. Rivers made 8 pro bowls. Stafford made one. This was not even remotely a discussion before this year. This was not a close comparison, before this year, or even before this post season. One year does not override two 10+ year careers. Everything you're listing has happened literally in the last two months. This is the absolute worst kind of reactionary take.

 

 

Yikes.

So first, you.....you're citing the pro bowl? The same pro bowl that saw Kyler Murray voted in this season over Stafford?

Second, why would we only compare their years when they were in the league together when Rivers came into the league several years before Stafford? That makes little sense. Rivers played 16 years and this was Stafford's 13th.

Right now Stafford is better than Rivers ever was. I don't think it makes sense to think that Rivers is better than Stafford for throwing 22 TDs, 61% and 3300 yards but being the QB of a 14-2 team (one of those coveted pro bowl seasons).

Is it regular season stats and wins? Stafford's career passer rating is 4 points lower, but he didn't play with a league MVP in their prime AND another hall of famer.

Or should we look at playoffs? Where Stafford's passer rating is 99 compared to Rivers 85? And the record, along with the Super Bowl?

[rocky_rams]

I’ve seen both play and they both are very similar in regards to being streaky. 
 

If we are going individual accolades then Rivers for sure

if we are talking overall play then give me Stafford. Stafford is one of the most clutch QBs I’ve ever seen. Rivers had so much talent around him on offense for the majority of his career. Give Stafford those same players and Stafford will have much more individual accomplishments than he currently has. 

also Stafford has a ring now.
 

So I think Stafford is a better QB overall but Rivers has the better individual resume 

[FrantikRam]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

This is a bit misleading. Rivers took over a 9-7 team and turned it into a 14-2 team. Then after the Chargers stupidly fired Schottenheimer they had Norv Turner, Mike McCoy, and Anthony Lynn as HCs. You really think Rivers had great coaching over the course of his career? 14/15 years he had mediocre to bad HCs. 

Yeah, I'd be willing to wager that the LA Rams coaches, GM, training staff in LA in 2021 are far superior than anything that Rivers had. McVay averages 11 wins every year and is considered the golden boy of HCs. Stafford stepped into a team primed for a super bowl run, provided good QB play, and had a nice 4 game stretch. Very commendable.

But Rivers was a really putting up top-5 QB production for many years. That's much harder to do than have a nice 4-game stretch. For instance, Joe Flacco had a way better 4-game stretch than Stafford, but is not close to Rivers in terms of ability.   

 

 

 

He turned a 9-7 team into 14-2 team by completing 61% of his passes and throwing for 3300 yards? Crazy to think that a QB coming in and throwing for less yards, less TDs and a worse completion percentage than the QB the prior year can take a team from 9-7 to 14-2. It's almost like there were other forces at work there.

The Rams roster and coaches may be better than anything Rivers had to work with - but Stafford was also the key ingredient in the last three playoff wins. He is so much better than Rivers was in the playoffs it's just not close here.

[AngusMcFife]

17 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

He turned a 9-7 team into 14-2 team by completing 61% of his passes and throwing for 3300 yards? Crazy to think that a QB coming in and throwing for less yards, less TDs and a worse completion percentage than the QB the prior year can take a team from 9-7 to 14-2. It's almost like there were other forces at work there.

The Rams roster and coaches may be better than anything Rivers had to work with - but Stafford was also the key ingredient in the last three playoff wins. He is so much better than Rivers was in the playoffs it's just not close here.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by fixating on Rivers first year as a starter. The reason Rivers is better because he played very well from 2008-2018. After the talent from 2006 team degraded, he was still excellent with a new teammates despite being poorly coached and with bad ownership. 

Stafford for his career is reliably the 5th to 15th best QB in a season. This season he was 7th in DVOA. 

Rivers, on the other hand, has had several years where he is top-3 QB. 

[FrantikRam]

1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by fixating on Rivers first year as a starter. The reason Rivers is better because he played very well from 2008-2018. After the talent from 2006 team degraded, he was still excellent with a new teammates despite being poorly coached and with bad ownership. 

Stafford for his career is reliably the 5th to 15th best QB in a season. This season he was 7th in DVOA. 

Rivers, on the other hand, has had several years where he is top-3 QB. 

 

That point was two fold: someone used pro bowls as a marker which is asinine, and Rivers first year stats show how bad using that as metric is.

Also, Rivers first year as a starter was very mediocre - and yet the team went 14-2. Any QB who inherits a team that good will be viewed better than he really was.

7th in DVOA, but 4 playoff wins, three playoff GW drives and a Super Bowl ring - pretty sure this season tops anything Rivers did by a margin.

Rivers was better if were just looking at regular season. But it's over now that Stafford has a ring and did the things he did to get it.

Especially when you factor in that Rivers had a team/roster advantage for the majority of that time.

[BayRaider]

Rivers was a great great QB. With a Shanahan, Reid, McVay, he wins a Super Bowl no doubt. And for the prime of his career, Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers were usually the “Top 5”. 

Unfortunately Eli’s dad was right. They never put good coaching around him, or very many good defenses. 

Same thing likely happens to Herbert. many 8-9’s and 9-8’s in the Chargers future. Anyone who thinks they have changed is wildly naive.

Edit: Yes, Rivers was better than Stafford, although not too far off. Rivers was in the 5-10 range most of his career while Stafford was in the 7-12 range most of his career. Stafford at no point in his career was considered a Top 5 QB. Not even now. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by BayRaider

[jjab360]

If you're asking me which QB I'd take everything being equal, it'd be Stafford.

 

If you're asking which QB has been considered as better over the course of their careers, it's obviously Rivers at this point.

[Jakuvious]

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

 

Yikes.

So first, you.....you're citing the pro bowl? The same pro bowl that saw Kyler Murray voted in this season over Stafford?

Second, why would we only compare their years when they were in the league together when Rivers came into the league several years before Stafford? That makes little sense. Rivers played 16 years and this was Stafford's 13th.

Right now Stafford is better than Rivers ever was. I don't think it makes sense to think that Rivers is better than Stafford for throwing 22 TDs, 61% and 3300 yards but being the QB of a 14-2 team (one of those coveted pro bowl seasons).

Is it regular season stats and wins? Stafford's career passer rating is 4 points lower, but he didn't play with a league MVP in their prime AND another hall of famer.

Or should we look at playoffs? Where Stafford's passer rating is 99 compared to Rivers 85? And the record, along with the Super Bowl?

Pro-bowls are a valid indication of public perception of how good a player was (which is relevant when my argument is that Stafford was never seen as better than Rivers when they were both in the league), and like it or not, pro-bowls are a key number used post-career for things like hall of fame consideration. The pro-bowl system is flawed, absolutely. Is it so flawed that an 8 to 1 discrepancy is inaccurate? Doubtful.

[FrantikRam]

7 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Pro-bowls are a valid indication of public perception of how good a player was (which is relevant when my argument is that Stafford was never seen as better than Rivers when they were both in the league), and like it or not, pro-bowls are a key number used post-career for things like hall of fame consideration. The pro-bowl system is flawed, absolutely. Is it so flawed that an 8 to 1 discrepancy is inaccurate? Doubtful.

 

Ah I see the disconnect. I agree that Stafford was never seen as better than Rivers when they were both in the league.

My argument is that what he did in this playoff - which is historic (three game winning drives including a Super Bowl winning drive) - puts him above Rivers all time.

And now that we've seen this, I think that Stafford would be seen as better than Rivers if he took over a team that went 12-4 and 9-7 the prior two seasons

[Kip Smithers]

Can’t lie, Sherman opened my eyes. I always thought that this win to some way, somehow put Stafford in HOF. Then when I saw his resume, I was like “lol ain’t no way should he make it as of now”.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kip Smithers

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That point was two fold: someone used pro bowls as a marker which is asinine, and Rivers first year stats show how bad using that as metric is.

Also, Rivers first year as a starter was very mediocre - and yet the team went 14-2. Any QB who inherits a team that good will be viewed better than he really was.

7th in DVOA, but 4 playoff wins, three playoff GW drives and a Super Bowl ring - pretty sure this season tops anything Rivers did by a margin.

Rivers was better if were just looking at regular season. But it's over now that Stafford has a ring and did the things he did to get it.

Especially when you factor in that Rivers had a team/roster advantage for the majority of that time.

Would you say Joe Flacco is better than Rivers? Than Stafford?  

His playoff resume is vastly superior to Stafford's.
- 10-5 career playoff record
- Super Bowl MVP
- Had the greatest postseason run in the history of the game (11 TDs, 0 INTs)
- Beat greatest dynasty in the history of the sport 2x in 2009 and 2012

Edited February 15, 2022 by AngusMcFife

[CP3MVP]

16 hours ago, lancerman said:

Fouts on average had better talent. Stafford this year blows every Fouts team out of the water 

 

Stafford is also not better. From 79-83 (a 5 year period) Fouts had an argument for being the best in the league at that time. Stafford hardly has an argument for a single year being top 5. Seriously this year you could easily without thinking put Rodgers, Brady, Allen and Mahomes over him. So the debate is whether he cracks that last spot. 

1.)You were never able to explain how the 79 chargers who had 7 all pros (not even including Winslow) next to Fouts are “blown out the water” by the Current Rams. 

2.)Fouts Wouldn’t  be top 5 in this era either so why knock Stafford? All those QBs are better than Dan ever was.