Madmike90 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Madmike90 said: I think some thought the $5+ million was this year alone given his draft position...for me this is just a sensible move to make...it's obvious Poles had a good grade on him when he scouted him and you don't go from Outland winner to being terrible in just one year...put him at LG behind Whitehair...build his confidence back up this year then you still have control over his contract at a fairly low price for the next 3 years after that when he will only be 24-27 years old...not much downside there as long as we don't try and force him to be the OT he isn't. I like the optimism, but outland winners have been terrible in the NFL. Luke Joekel, Josh Garnett come to mind. Raiders moved him to RG where he gave up the most pressures in the league. New staff didn't look at him there for whatever reason. Regardless, the same issues he had at Alabama have persisted. He lacks power in his punch and tries pushing defenders. Not quick laterally and plays with poor leverage. Feet stop and can get pushed backed into the pocket. He was better against the run, but still lacked a finish. He's smart, works hard so hopefully he can turn it around after some much needed time learning as a backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 29 minutes ago, big_palooka said: I like the optimism, but outland winners have been terrible in the NFL. Luke Joekel, Josh Garnett come to mind. Raiders moved him to RG where he gave up the most pressures in the league. New staff didn't look at him there for whatever reason. Regardless, the same issues he had at Alabama have persisted. He lacks power in his punch and tries pushing defenders. Not quick laterally and plays with poor leverage. Feet stop and can get pushed backed into the pocket. He was better against the run, but still lacked a finish. He's smart, works hard so hopefully he can turn it around after some much needed time learning as a backup. Brandon Scherff & Joe Thomas also won the Outland...it's easy to cherry pick names for basically any of the college awards that prove a point as a plus or negative... The point is the Raiders over drafted the guy...changed his position...gave him basically no help...and expected him to over deliver...that would be a tough situation for anyone...I am happy we took the risk on him...a lot to fix no doubt however there is also a lot of raw materials to work with...I will trust in Poles evaluation given his recent success...if he turns out to be a poor pick up then we have plenty of cap to eat the dead money...it's a calculated risk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Vets: Rieff, Whitehair, Patrick 2 years or less: Mustipher/Borom/Jenkins/Leatherwood/Braxton/Carter/Diesch Diesh is an interesting pickup as a development guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Now Poles needs to start shopping hard for WRs. Even if it means trading. Getsy/Fields can't go into the season with Mooney, Equator, Pettis, and a banged up Pringle and Velus. We're literally one more injury away from playing scraps off other teams PS mid-season and it's not even week 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) There’s no downside to the Leatherwood signing IMO when you consider that (assuming he’s at guard, where he best fits IMO) he’s effectively replacing Schofield, who was both just a guy and a short term placeholder. With Jenkins and Whitehair starting there is zero pressure on Leatherwood here. Let a super talented kid who’s struggled (a lot) out of the gate get coached up with no immediate expectations, and if he finds a decent bit of that potential at the pro level that got him drafted in round 1 in the first place then it’s a huge steal. If he doesn’t then he’s an inexpensive backup for a few years or some manageable dead cap in a year where we have nearly $100M in cap space anyway. These are the kinds of risks we should be taking IMO. Calculated. High upside. Low risk. Had someone told us last year April that we’d have both Jenkins and Leatherwood as potential long term OL pieces in front of Justin Fields at QB we’d all have taken that in a cocaine heartbeat. That none of them was immediately a top tier NFL player after being put in situations that set them up to struggle as rookies doesn’t change anything about what each could become in time. Edited September 1, 2022 by AZBearsFan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 I had never heard of Jonathan before yesterday but his athletic ability & variety of moves are intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Now Poles needs to start shopping hard for WRs. Even if it means trading. Getsy/Fields can't go into the season with Mooney, Equator, Pettis, and a banged up Pringle and Velus. We're literally one more injury away from playing scraps off other teams PS mid-season and it's not even week 1. Agreed...even out with the injuries I think this roster is ahead of where I thought we would be heading into the season...if we could find a young receiver who is maybe buried on a depth chart somewhere then I would be aggressive in going after him if he is a starting calibre player we feel will be here in 3-4 years... Van Jefferson (Unrealistic but would knock it out the park) Chase Claypool (Unrealistic) Darius Slayton (Probably our best bet) Josh Palmer (Possibly but the Chargers might not want to give up talent) Marquez Callaway (Realistic but not a top talent) Edited September 1, 2022 by Madmike90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 I wonder how much the quick improvement that this staff have been able to get out of Braxton Jones impacted the decision to pick up Leatherwood…watching a bit of Raiders preseason I don’t think his feet are that bad at RT…not great sure and I would much prefer him inside but not the worst…where he has issues IMO is where Jones had issues coming out this offseason…he bends at the waist and doesn’t throw his hands enough…at times his punch is far too looped and outside as almost a grab rather than direct…Jones has seemingly sorted those issues very quickly…I wonder if we can get Leatherwood in the same sort of space as I have seen no issues around his smarts or work ethic again much like Jones…there has always been whispers that we aren’t sold on Borom…maybe they try him at OT first although IMO the best we can hope for is him at LG come 2023 if we are comfortable to release Whitehair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 11 hours ago, Madmike90 said: Brandon Scherff & Joe Thomas also won the Outland...it's easy to cherry pick names for basically any of the college awards that prove a point as a plus or negative... The point is the Raiders over drafted the guy...changed his position...gave him basically no help...and expected him to over deliver...that would be a tough situation for anyone...I am happy we took the risk on him...a lot to fix no doubt however there is also a lot of raw materials to work with...I will trust in Poles evaluation given his recent success...if he turns out to be a poor pick up then we have plenty of cap to eat the dead money...it's a calculated risk. Worth noting. He was a starting RT at Alabama, moved to RG because of injury. So he had played those spots. But I agree, Gruden/Mayock overdrafted him and because of that, forced him into the lineup when he needed to develop. He was however, worthless as a rookie. Got a clean slate with a new staff and fell to 4th in the competition losing out to a rookie 7th round pick. He was beaten like a drum all preseason by 3rd and 4th string players. Hope he can develop, but Chicago isn't exactly loaded on the Oline and could elevate him to quick. It's telling 30 other teams didn't even put a claim in on the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman(DH23) Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, big_palooka said: Worth noting. He was a starting RT at Alabama, moved to RG because of injury. So he had played those spots. But I agree, Gruden/Mayock overdrafted him and because of that, forced him into the lineup when he needed to develop. He was however, worthless as a rookie. Got a clean slate with a new staff and fell to 4th in the competition losing out to a rookie 7th round pick. He was beaten like a drum all preseason by 3rd and 4th string players. Hope he can develop, but Chicago isn't exactly loaded on the Oline and could elevate him to quick. It's telling 30 other teams didn't even put a claim in on the guy. Other trams didn't put a claim in for him bc of the guaranteed money. Had he cleared waivers he would have likely had a number of suitors based on talent alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 12 hours ago, Madmike90 said: Brandon Scherff & Joe Thomas also won the Outland...it's easy to cherry pick names for basically any of the college awards that prove a point as a plus or negative... The point is the Raiders over drafted the guy...changed his position...gave him basically no help...and expected him to over deliver...that would be a tough situation for anyone...I am happy we took the risk on him...a lot to fix no doubt however there is also a lot of raw materials to work with...I will trust in Poles evaluation given his recent success...if he turns out to be a poor pick up then we have plenty of cap to eat the dead money...it's a calculated risk. You're the one who said you don't go fron Outland winner to crap so easily. There have been plenty of Outland winners who sucked in the NFL. Leatherwood being awful wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all. Obviously Mayock/Gruden were a disaster but that doesn't mean all of their mistakes will succeed elsewhere 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 25 minutes ago, beardown3231 said: You're the one who said you don't go fron Outland winner to crap so easily. There have been plenty of Outland winners who sucked in the NFL. Leatherwood being awful wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all. Obviously Mayock/Gruden were a disaster but that doesn't mean all of their mistakes will succeed elsewhere You’re right that he may not succeed. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s some sure thing that things go better for him here than they did in Vegas. It’s an upside play at an average cost of > $2M per year for a guy who probably isn’t starting for us in 2022 outside of injury unless those in front of him are dreadful, in case it can’t be worse than that anyway. Most of us were willing to give Ryan Bates the same guarantee and twice the annual pay this offseason coming off of a handful of starts across 4 seasons and anoint him as an immediate starter. How is this move more risky than that one would’ve been? I think Leatherwood still having the 3 years on his deal at a totally palatable cost (plus the 5th year option) gives us more ability to not rush him into the lineup if his play doesn’t warrant it. And if he never becomes more than a backup? Then he’s a $2M backup or a cut. Every team has a $2M backup on their roster they don’t love. We’re buying super low on long term potential. It’s really not that big a deal IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 A reprise of the N'Keal Harry deal with the Bears sending a small amount of cap relief instead of a pick. Chances are slim that either turn their careers around. But the cost is minimal and there's some upside. Bears have put together an OL that could easily implode. But it could also produce a few out-of-nowhere talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 50 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said: You’re right that he may not succeed. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s some sure thing that things go better for him here than they did in Vegas. It’s an upside play at an average cost of > $2M per year for a guy who probably isn’t starting for us in 2022 outside of injury unless those in front of him are dreadful, in case it can’t be worse than that anyway. Most of us were willing to give Ryan Bates the same guarantee and twice the annual pay this offseason coming off of a handful of starts across 4 seasons and anoint him as an immediate starter. How is this move more risky than that one would’ve been? I think Leatherwood still having the 3 years on his deal at a totally palatable cost (plus the 5th year option) gives us more ability to not rush him into the lineup if his play doesn’t warrant it. And if he never becomes more than a backup? Then he’s a $2M backup or a cut. Every team has a $2M backup on their roster they don’t love. We’re buying super low on long term potential. It’s really not that big a deal IMO. I don't disagree with anything you said. It's just some posters have blind optimism for no reason and will make arguments and back them up endlessly despite facts showing the complete opposite. No Outland winner goes from great to awful that quickly! A simple wikipedia search will show that a BUNCH of Outland winners go from great to awful quickly 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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