Week 18 Gameday Thread (Win And In Edition) - Green Bay Packers (8-8-0) vs. Detroit Lions (8-8-0)

[vegas492]

38 minutes ago, squire12 said:

The DB on the 4th a 2 were playing off.  at some point, players might need to recognize the situation and not gift a free release and easy yardage.  that is the situational awareness I am speaking of.  

Douglas play still is problematic in drawing a penalty and giving 15 yards and a much easier kick.  

I should have made my post in green.  It was sarcasm.  

[incognito_man]

12 hours ago, Brat&Beer said:

All the DB's lined up 5-7 yards off the line of scrimmage on 4th and 2. 

"Very likely" to

(a) win the game or

(b) lose the game on a Rodgers INT, sack fumble, or badly off-target incompletion 

[{Family Ghost}]

2 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

"Very likely" to

(a) win the game or

(b) lose the game on a Rodgers INT, sack fumble, or badly off-target incompletion 

Those corners should be on the line jamming wideouts.  

[incognito_man]

4 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Those corners should be on the line jamming wideouts.  

Yes

But if they had, we still were not "very likely" to win the game. Our offense had been throttled most of the game, especially from reaching the end zone.

[{Family Ghost}]

7 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Yes

But if they had, we still were not "very likely" to win the game. Our offense had been throttled most of the game, especially from reaching the end zone.

True, but it was another indictment on Joe Barry.  He's extremely passive more often than not.

[incognito_man]

13 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

True, but it was another indictment on Joe Barry.  He's extremely passive more often than not.

Ok, sure. But I was pointing out the silly language about us being "very likely" to win. I'm not crazy about Joe Barry. Starting to think he's wildly underrated here though. But I'd definitely be excited to move on from him. But the point of my post was to call out Andy Herman's dumb use of "very likely".

[{Family Ghost}]

3 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Ok, sure. But I was pointing out the silly language about us being "very likely" to win. I'm not crazy about Joe Barry. Starting to think he's wildly underrated here though. But I'd definitely be excited to move on from him. But the point of my post was to call out Andy Herman's dumb use of "very likely".

Wouldn't the Packers been up 16-13 had they stuffed that 4th down play?  They would have had a solid shot at getting a win I'd think.

[Mdpackfan22]

23 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Ok, sure. But I was pointing out the silly language about us being "very likely" to win. I'm not crazy about Joe Barry. Starting to think he's wildly underrated here though. But I'd definitely be excited to move on from him. But the point of my post was to call out Andy Herman's dumb use of "very likely".

If we stopped them there, decent chance we run out the clock(was around 5 minutes left i believe)

[MrBobGray]

Not sure how that play is Barry's fault.  Press coverage plays right into the Lions' hands; if you only need two yards, pretty much any rub concept is going to damn near guarantee you get that.  The point of playing off coverage is to make the QB take the tight window throw to the outside, which they did, except it wasn't a tight window throw because Alexander got cute.  He's got his eyes on Goff the entire time and only breaks when he sees the ball leave his hand, and then can't get there in time because he's still a full five yards from his man when he starts his break.  I don't know if he lost track of where the 1st down marker was or what, but slow-playing his break when he was still five yards from the closest receiver was a truly bizarre decision from a guy who is generally so aggressive.

[vegas492]

6 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Not sure how that play is Barry's fault.  Press coverage plays right into the Lions' hands; if you only need two yards, pretty much any rub concept is going to damn near guarantee you get that.  The point of playing off coverage is to make the QB take the tight window throw to the outside, which they did, except it wasn't a tight window throw because Alexander got cute.  He's got his eyes on Goff the entire time and only breaks when he sees the ball leave his hand, and then can't get there in time because he's still a full five yards from his man when he starts his break.  I don't know if he lost track of where the 1st down marker was or what, but slow-playing his break when he was still five yards from the closest receiver was a truly bizarre decision from a guy who is generally so aggressive.

I'd rather die with a rub play that could be called PI than the soft zone that was the easiest "gimme" of a play that they could have run there.

[incognito_man]

11 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Not sure how that play is Barry's fault.  Press coverage plays right into the Lions' hands; if you only need two yards, pretty much any rub concept is going to damn near guarantee you get that.  The point of playing off coverage is to make the QB take the tight window throw to the outside, which they did, except it wasn't a tight window throw because Alexander got cute.  He's got his eyes on Goff the entire time and only breaks when he sees the ball leave his hand, and then can't get there in time because he's still a full five yards from his man when he starts his break.  I don't know if he lost track of where the 1st down marker was or what, but slow-playing his break when he was still five yards from the closest receiver was a truly bizarre decision from a guy who is generally so aggressive.

I think that Barry has absorbed a significant amount of both justified and unjustified criticism. 

[MrBobGray]

2 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I'd rather die with a rub play that could be called PI than the soft zone that was the easiest "gimme" of a play that they could have run there.

That's my point though, it shouldn't have been a gimme.  The point of off-coverage isn't to maintain a huge buffer so you don't get beat deep, it's to give your defenders proper angles to throwing lanes.  Against press coverage, the ball just has to get past the defender's reach and you're good.  There's no thought process there, because there's only one place the defender is going to be (trail position).  Against off coverage, the QB has to judge the CB and determine if they can get to the ball in time depending on the throw and the angle the CB has to it.  They may also lose sight of the defender in the pocket, and be throwing blind which can scare QBs into holding it longer than they should.  But all that is only true if the defender is close enough to have leverage; the problem here is Jaire is so far off the ball and his hips are open to the inside that there's no decision to be made for Goff.  As soon as he gets the ball he knows exactly where he's going to throw it.  Not just to who, but exactly the spot in space-time he's going to put the ball.  Jaire played the coverage such that it was physically impossible for him to break up a pass at the marker for no reason.  There's no deep threat, he's not being held in coverage by two guys entering his zone.  I mean hell, why are his damn hips turned away from the boundary when there's two other guys in zone right next to him?  Who really knows, but I'd bet money he got cute trying to bait Goff to throw that exact ball without realizing how bad his spacing was for actually springing the trap. 

[Packerraymond]

7 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

I think that Barry has absorbed a significant amount of both justified and unjustified criticism. 

There's absolutely no question he improved the defense over the final 6 weeks, but he also started doing things many on this board outlined they wanted to see a new DC bring when we fired Pettine. How much credit does someone get for taking 75% of the season to start doing the things that are obvious even to those without the resources of a professional football team? 

Barry should've been fired after the Eagles game. He wasn't because LaFleur is a big believer in the Mac school of nepotism. That allowed Barry to start doing what he should've been doing since day 1 of being a coordinator here. Why should that be rewarded??

If Barry continues to operate this way, we should see a defensive improvement next year, however do I trust Barry even one iota if he's in a playoff battle with a bright offensive mind like Shanahan and has been figured out to be able to battle wits with him and keep us in a game? Not a chance. He's worse than Pettine, and Pettine got canned for going M2M vs Tampa right before half, but I'm starting to wonder if that would've happened if Mike was Lafleur's "buddy."

[Packerraymond]

20 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

That's my point though, it shouldn't have been a gimme.  The point of off-coverage isn't to maintain a huge buffer so you don't get beat deep, it's to give your defenders proper angles to throwing lanes.  Against press coverage, the ball just has to get past the defender's reach and you're good.  There's no thought process there, because there's only one place the defender is going to be (trail position).  Against off coverage, the QB has to judge the CB and determine if they can get to the ball in time depending on the throw and the angle the CB has to it.  They may also lose sight of the defender in the pocket, and be throwing blind which can scare QBs into holding it longer than they should.  But all that is only true if the defender is close enough to have leverage; the problem here is Jaire is so far off the ball and his hips are open to the inside that there's no decision to be made for Goff.  As soon as he gets the ball he knows exactly where he's going to throw it.  Not just to who, but exactly the spot in space-time he's going to put the ball.  Jaire played the coverage such that it was physically impossible for him to break up a pass at the marker for no reason.  There's no deep threat, he's not being held in coverage by two guys entering his zone.  I mean hell, why are his damn hips turned away from the boundary when there's two other guys in zone right next to him?  Who really knows, but I'd bet money he got cute trying to bait Goff to throw that exact ball without realizing how bad his spacing was for actually springing the trap. 

Amos does the exact same thing on the 4th and 2 to decide the game. That's coaching. A coach who preaches playing soft to defend deep over attacking an offense. It's guarantee to get 2-4 yards passing vs this defense. Barry welcomes it. 

[Mr. Fussnputz]

22 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

That's my point though, it shouldn't have been a gimme.  The point of off-coverage isn't to maintain a huge buffer so you don't get beat deep, it's to give your defenders proper angles to throwing lanes.  Against press coverage, the ball just has to get past the defender's reach and you're good.  There's no thought process there, because there's only one place the defender is going to be (trail position).  Against off coverage, the QB has to judge the CB and determine if they can get to the ball in time depending on the throw and the angle the CB has to it.  They may also lose sight of the defender in the pocket, and be throwing blind which can scare QBs into holding it longer than they should.  But all that is only true if the defender is close enough to have leverage; the problem here is Jaire is so far off the ball and his hips are open to the inside that there's no decision to be made for Goff.  As soon as he gets the ball he knows exactly where he's going to throw it.  Not just to who, but exactly the spot in space-time he's going to put the ball.  Jaire played the coverage such that it was physically impossible for him to break up a pass at the marker for no reason.  There's no deep threat, he's not being held in coverage by two guys entering his zone.  I mean hell, why are his damn hips turned away from the boundary when there's two other guys in zone right next to him?  Who really knows, but I'd bet money he got cute trying to bait Goff to throw that exact ball without realizing how bad his spacing was for actually springing the trap. 

So, is this on coaching, or on the player?