Packers 2023 UDFA Class.

[incognito_man]

46 minutes ago, Norm said:

Permabans for Cox jokes

@Packerraymond

Your cox a joke

[incognito_man]

24 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Enagbare's ability to generate power is absolutely wild to watch sometimes.  His punch off the line doesn't require any momentum at all and still rocks OTs back like he got a running start.

Knew that arm length and explosion would translate for him. Still don't know how he dropped that much in the draft.

[craig]

On Cox's RAS numbers, I think it's curious that his 10-yard-split was 8.5, but his 3-cone is 2.8, and his shuttle is also poor.  To be excellent at one while awful at the other seems unexpected.  Quick-acceleration and change-of-direction capacity that a good pass-rusher likes would seem to value both 10 and 3-cone.  If anything, I'd think 3-cone and shuttle would have better correlation to pass-rush success, since 10-yard is straight and pass-rush never is.  

Perhaps the very inconsistency between those scores supports OldGuy's view that the scores don't fully reflect Cox's capacities, and that maybe he hadn't trained well for the 3-cone and the shuttle.  

Whatever.  I'm glad to have him, and I hope he improves as a football player, stays clean and stays motivated, stays professional, and plays good solid football for the Packers down the line. 

I also hope that he can play the run?  His RAS gave him a bad score for weight.  I'm expecting no KGB in terms of pass rush from him, but I'm also hoping that he's not KGB-hapless in terms of run defense!

[Refugee]

2 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

Enagbare's ability to generate power is absolutely wild to watch sometimes.  His punch off the line doesn't require any momentum at all and still rocks OTs back like he got a running start.

Definitely a “heavy hands” guy and you could see it on his NCAA tape. I’m hoping Brooks can have a similar debut. Wasn’t a combine king but all he did was produce, albeit in a small conference. Still, the guy has an undeniable knack to get in the backfield. 

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, craig said:

On Cox's RAS numbers, I think it's curious that his 10-yard-split was 8.5, but his 3-cone is 2.8, and his shuttle is also poor.  To be excellent at one while awful at the other seems unexpected.  Quick-acceleration and change-of-direction capacity that a good pass-rusher likes would seem to value both 10 and 3-cone.  If anything, I'd think 3-cone and shuttle would have better correlation to pass-rush success, since 10-yard is straight and pass-rush never is.  

Perhaps the very inconsistency between those scores supports OldGuy's view that the scores don't fully reflect Cox's capacities, and that maybe he hadn't trained well for the 3-cone and the shuttle.  

Whatever.  I'm glad to have him, and I hope he improves as a football player, stays clean and stays motivated, stays professional, and plays good solid football for the Packers down the line. 

I also hope that he can play the run?  His RAS gave him a bad score for weight.  I'm expecting no KGB in terms of pass rush from him, but I'm also hoping that he's not KGB-hapless in terms of run defense!

2.8 3 cone???

[craig]

On 0-10 scale.  

[MrBobGray]

3 hours ago, craig said:

On Cox's RAS numbers, I think it's curious that his 10-yard-split was 8.5, but his 3-cone is 2.8, and his shuttle is also poor.  To be excellent at one while awful at the other seems unexpected.  Quick-acceleration and change-of-direction capacity that a good pass-rusher likes would seem to value both 10 and 3-cone.  If anything, I'd think 3-cone and shuttle would have better correlation to pass-rush success, since 10-yard is straight and pass-rush never is.  

Perhaps the very inconsistency between those scores supports OldGuy's view that the scores don't fully reflect Cox's capacities, and that maybe he hadn't trained well for the 3-cone and the shuttle.  

Whatever.  I'm glad to have him, and I hope he improves as a football player, stays clean and stays motivated, stays professional, and plays good solid football for the Packers down the line. 

I also hope that he can play the run?  His RAS gave him a bad score for weight.  I'm expecting no KGB in terms of pass rush from him, but I'm also hoping that he's not KGB-hapless in terms of run defense!

Training and being prepped for the combine/pro-day aside (since we don't have any good way to measure that from the outside), it's worth going through specifically what each drill is meant to test because I think that sometimes gets skipped over in online discussions.

1. Vertical jump and broad jump are pure max load explosive power tests.  Both tests are a single movement with no follow through (well broad jump has a little, but for the sake of simplicity let's ignore the landing) that do not need to be maintained.  Your goal is just to generate as much power as you can in one movement.
2. 10 yard split is also a straight line explosive power test, but unlike the vert and broad jump it requires you to maintain that explosiveness over a number of steps.  Form comes into play in a bigger way here, but we'll just assume most players get at least enough training to know what basic running form is.  Stride length tells you a little about flexibility, but the most important part of this test is seeing how a player generates and then maintains that power over distance.  A player with a great vert but a poor 10 yard split shows a huge ceiling on their explosive power generation but an inability to either use or generate that power over longer stretches of time and movement.
3. Shuttle is part explosive power, part change of direction.  Both parts are vital, which is why there are plenty of prospects with great explosive numbers but underwhelming shuttle numbers.  It's important to be clear about what change of direction means here: the 20 yard shuttle specifically tests how well a player can drop their weight to dump speed and reroute their power.  Since your contact with the ground is the only real source of inertia you can use to slow your self down, the higher your weight is (ie, the straighter you're standing) the longer the turn around takes.  So shuttle gives you a bit of a mix of explosive power generation, flex/bend through the lower body, body lean/ability to sink the hips, and the ability to transition from braking steps to accelerating steps.
4. 3-Cone is also explosive power and change of direction but with a much higher emphasis on the CoD part.  Here, flexibility is king.  The 3-cone is all about quick feet and the ability to keep speed and momentum regardless of lower body angles.  If you're stiff through the ankles or hips, you end up losing a ton of your speed as your round the cones because you need extra steps to make up for not being able to keep your stability with steeper lower body angles. 

Which of these tests is most important depends a lot on the player we're talking about and what the team wants to do with them.  A power rusher doesn't need as good a 3-cone time as a speed rusher does, because he isn't likely to try to run the arc and thus need the same ankle/hip flexibility.  In terms of Cox/Enagbare, Both Cox and Enagbare test out as guys who generate power and can maintain it over distance, but struggle when asked to bend or drop their weight.  It's worth noting that Enagbare has significantly longer arms and did his tests at 258 vs 250 for Cox.  It's not a huge difference, but it shouldn't be ignored because Enagbare also out-performed Cox on the raw explosive power tests that favor lighter athletes.  Being more explosive at a heavier weight means there's a multiplicative difference between the two when it comes to their shared biggest strength.

[craig]

Bob, thanks for that post.  That was REALLY clarifying, the best explanation I've ever read on this.  Thanks!  

 

[craig]

From that view, Cox's way-below-average shuttle and 3-cone suggest that COD and flexibility both indicate as liabilities.  

That would seem pretty problematic for pass-rushing.  Lots of sink-and-swerve-and-COD for the really good ones.  

Questions:

1. In terms of run defense, which qualities would you say are most important?  Between explosive power jolt, explosive power sustain, sink and leverage, sink and redirect power, COD, flexibility...  between those combine measurements, which might be the most pertinent for run defense?  Or in Cox's case, the most concerning, if any?  We've kinda been processing his numbers for pass-rush, but not necessarily for run defense, if that makes sense?
2. Reference to Enagbare having "heavy hands".  Which combine measurements might best reflect that quality, if any?  
3. Combine measurements:  Any insights into how reproducible?  If the same guy does shuttle and 3 cone every few weeks, would he get internally consistent scores on the 0-10 scale?  Or might there be scatter, where he scores 8.5 one Monday and 6.2 two weeks later?  
4. Related:  Any guess as to how much of those scores are training-based?  Like, if 2 years out from combine you took all the same OLB's and did a pop-combine, having not practiced any of those drills in 2 or 4 years, would the relative RAS rankings be pretty similar, with Enagbare and Cox still pretty mediocre/bad RAS?  Or might relative rankings be wildly different with training forgotten?   
5. I training factors, otherwise guys wouldn't spend months doing combine-training instead of football-skills training, right?  Given my physique, I'd like to practice my exact stride-length and weight shift to best navigate my COD for the specific 3-cone distances. 
6. I wonder if stride-length factors?  The exact 3-cone and shuttle distances may better fit some stride-lengths than others?  
7. Spriggs-Factor and position:  Spriggs was fast and nimble at 292, not at 312.  TE, DL, OL, and OLB seem positions where guys often add weight post-draft.  Tom and Newman added; Cox will get bigger/stronger than combine 250, and I'd not be surprised if Enagbare has added; Deguara weighs more than combine weight or college film; Sims/Kraft/Musgrave may all try to add some power; I'm guessing both Wooden and Brooks may try to add.  I'm curious how combine measurements would change if guys took pop-combine three years late after adding weight?  

[svp]

He was out of school at some point. School is whr e the coaches tell you what is on the test. Maybe he didnt get the memo.

[AlexGreen#20]

10 hours ago, craig said:

From that view, Cox's way-below-average shuttle and 3-cone suggest that COD and flexibility both indicate as liabilities.  

That would seem pretty problematic for pass-rushing.  Lots of sink-and-swerve-and-COD for the really good ones.  

Questions:

1. In terms of run defense, which qualities would you say are most important?  Between explosive power jolt, explosive power sustain, sink and leverage, sink and redirect power, COD, flexibility...  between those combine measurements, which might be the most pertinent for run defense?  Or in Cox's case, the most concerning, if any?  We've kinda been processing his numbers for pass-rush, but not necessarily for run defense, if that makes sense?
2. Reference to Enagbare having "heavy hands".  Which combine measurements might best reflect that quality, if any?  
3. Combine measurements:  Any insights into how reproducible?  If the same guy does shuttle and 3 cone every few weeks, would he get internally consistent scores on the 0-10 scale?  Or might there be scatter, where he scores 8.5 one Monday and 6.2 two weeks later?  
4. Related:  Any guess as to how much of those scores are training-based?  Like, if 2 years out from combine you took all the same OLB's and did a pop-combine, having not practiced any of those drills in 2 or 4 years, would the relative RAS rankings be pretty similar, with Enagbare and Cox still pretty mediocre/bad RAS?  Or might relative rankings be wildly different with training forgotten?   
5. I training factors, otherwise guys wouldn't spend months doing combine-training instead of football-skills training, right?  Given my physique, I'd like to practice my exact stride-length and weight shift to best navigate my COD for the specific 3-cone distances. 
6. I wonder if stride-length factors?  The exact 3-cone and shuttle distances may better fit some stride-lengths than others?  
7. Spriggs-Factor and position:  Spriggs was fast and nimble at 292, not at 312.  TE, DL, OL, and OLB seem positions where guys often add weight post-draft.  Tom and Newman added; Cox will get bigger/stronger than combine 250, and I'd not be surprised if Enagbare has added; Deguara weighs more than combine weight or college film; Sims/Kraft/Musgrave may all try to add some power; I'm guessing both Wooden and Brooks may try to add.  I'm curious how combine measurements would change if guys took pop-combine three years late after adding weight?  

1. Explosive power jolt mixed with general awareness. The goal of run blocking is to engage your blocker and lock him out, holding him at arms length so you can slide off and make the tackle. Similarly if you can hold him off, you're going to be able to control him if he tries to reach block you and you'll protect your gap. Now there are guys, and Gary is as guilty of this as any, who are great at locking guys out, but have a tendency to get laser focused on doing only that and then they don't pay attention when the guy runs by them. That's just a matter of tape.

2. The jumps. Heavy hands typically refer to the ability to rock a guy backwards at the line. That's a matter of pure explosive ability.

3. It depends on the measurement. Your jumps will be pretty consistent, There's always going to be a +/- X% of these things but all are pretty repeatable for the most part. 

4. RAS will be difficult to repeat after a few years just because guys will settle into their best playing weight, which isn't necessarily their best weight to participate in the underwear olympics. 

5. 5 yards is the distance between the cones. The general thought is that's roughly the depth of the pocket, and roughly the distance you'll go before a DB can start messing with you. Half of the point of the exercise is to see how fast you can explode 5 yards off the ball and still remain generally in control of your body. 

6. While possible, generally speaking all of these guys are going to be +/- 2 inches off of 6'3". The stride lengths likely aren't going to be different enough to really screw up a test. Minimally I've never seen any evidence that there's a correlation between height and 3 cone speed of similarly weighed athletes such that stride length would seem to matter. 

7. Everybody would be slightly slower and much stronger. There's a general understanding that guys are going to need to add weight in order to play in the pros. The question is how much will they need to add and to what extent will it affect their speed. Now some guys either come in with an NFL ready body, or some guys have enough bad weight that they can convert it to good weight and not add much in the way of bad weight, but the NFL is a grown man's league. 

[Billy86]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:48 PM, Refugee said:

Definitely a “heavy hands” guy and you could see it on his NCAA tape. I’m hoping Brooks can have a similar debut. Wasn’t a combine king but all he did was produce, albeit in a small conference. Still, the guy has an undeniable knack to get in the backfield. 

It's certainly exciting seeing some of the "Zadarius-like" comparisons from the draft take shape. He's still got a fair bit to go but I liked his play last year for a fifth round rookie, and he's in the right trajectory to keep on going. 

[craig]

thanks for thoughtful feedback, Alex.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's also possible that a guy whose draft stock was dubious since he got kicked out of two schools did not have his agent fronting him a lot of money for the same sort of combine training that the guys who expected to be high draft picks do.

Like if Cox's agent was being honest with him, he'd hear "you have a good chance of not getting drafted, but you have a chance to make a roster."

[Old Guy]

1 hour ago, PossibleCabbage said:

It's also possible that a guy whose draft stock was dubious since he got kicked out of two schools did not have his agent fronting him a lot of money for the same sort of combine training that the guys who expected to be high draft picks do.

Like if Cox's agent was being honest with him, he'd hear "you have a good chance of not getting drafted, but you have a chance to make a roster."

I mentioned this a couple of pages back. Guys train months for the underwear Olympics and spend tens of thousands of dollars getting prepped by the best professionals money can buy. 

Cox had no such luxury and was lucky to be able to participate at Florida's pro-day. Fortunate, for the Packers it worked out this way.