Ozzy Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 8 hours ago, Cearbhall said: What about Harrison Jr? Anything that has been done, is possible. Ozzy, whose opinion I respect highly as he is one of the independent thinkers giving out information, just compared them. I compared them too. I notice nobody came up with a QB that they could be confident enough in to trade up for, which was the ultimate question of the post you replied to. I also notice that nobody that looked at the McCarthy game against Indiana that was posted the other day said that what they saw there looked like first round talent. I am not sure if it was because they didn't want to defend a discussion of that topic that revolves around actual game tape. It may be just as Mr. @vike daddy said that some are "speculators". Past performance isn't a guarantee of future returns. I am somewhat of a speculator too. I see McCarthy as a QB that has the tools to possibly be an effective NFL QB. It's just for me, when I have to project that much improvement into a players NFL game, I don't see them as a first-round talent. Guys I want that high in the first round will have fewer question marks and a portfolio of solid game tape. Thank you @Ozzy for having an informed opinion and being willing to defend it. Harrison Jr I would have above any WR in the 2021 class, but yes a lot of that has to do with his dad and his work ethic that was passed on, not to mention Harrison Jr is a far superior athlete to his dad and his dad is a Hall of Famer. That has never happened in the NFL, a WR with a Hall of Fame father that is this good, it will be interesting to see but despite not working out at the combine or pro day, my guess is Harrison Jr is an awesome pro. As for projection, yes other positions it has happened, guys who have never even played football before have become successful pros in the NFL because of their physical traits. Teams gambled and it turned out because they took those traits and coached them up at their respective positions. QB is completely different and I would argue not one single starting QB in the NFL was super raw in college and developed completely into another player in the NFL. Not a single one, passing the football does not just magically improve, and all the traits the good pro QBs have they showed while in college to some degree, and if not it did not just magically get better against better competition. Completing passes at a high percentage in college on a stacked college football team has nothing to do with how one will complete passes at the NFL level against very even and superior competition across the board. So the "speculators" sure that is a thing to some degree, but really no it is not in terms of QBs. Even guys like Anthony Richardson, he showed big time flashes his last year at Florida and he is a big time athlete obviously because of his size. JJ McCarthy does not have going for him, being a huge physical athlete that can just succeed by running the football and everything plays off of that, he is too frail for that, so he will have to rely on his arm a lot more which could be a problem because making simple in the pocket throw for him is not always a guaranteed thing. Thus he is not worth the gamble in my book, if he was Anthony Richardson or Josh Allen physically, yeah sure trade up for him but not JJ McCarthy. It is a Mark Sanchez thing, young QB, played on a big stage, scrambled around and made plays but is not an elite runner and is not an elite passer either but because of his youth he has assumed development and improvement that may never happen. 1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said: We've been spoiled watching Mahomes, Allen, Herbert and Jackson just absolutely rip the ball. You don't need an elite arm to succeed though. The Manning boys, Roethlisberger, Brady, Russell Wilson and Foles all helped their team win a ring and none of them had the arm as the ones I just mentioned. True but Peyton Manning is a football savant and his processing is out of this world as is his leadership, field command, work ethic etc. JJ McCarthy is not even close to Peyton Manning as a QB in basically every category outside of one. Only thing JJ is better at his scrambling which is why he is overrated currently. You take out his ability to scramble and take out throws when he is scrambling and on the move he is pretty average as a player if just looking at him in the pocket. And unlike guys like Lawrence, Hurts or Josh Allen, JJ as a runner is pretty questionable as well because he is not nearly as big or as strong as those guys and not sure he will ever be the running threat they have been in the league. Too bad because that could help him greatly while he gets up to speed on the QB position in terms of making NFL throws. And yes you do not need great Jeff George velocity on the football or spin but it does help to be able to make simple throws in the pocket and do so constantly. JJ has not shown the ability to do that, sure he can get away from pressure at times but other times you just have to be able to stand in there, take a hit and still make the throw in a pressure situation. The Packers gambled on drafting Jordan Love and it paid off because he had crazy impressive arm talent coming out of Utah State. Where as Mark Sanchez, he did not have crazy impressive arm talent, he just played on a stacked football team that won at a high level his only year as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes22 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, SemperFeist said: I always find the term “arm talent” funny. Because no one wants to include accuracy as part of the talent portion. Yet, accuracy is the most important aspect of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP_allday2869 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Are we sure that Minnesota would prefer Daniels if he or Maye and even McCarthy were there at the same time? I was just thinking today that when Josh Dobbs was playing, KOC did not design or adapt the offense to Dobbs's only strength: his running ability. KOC was still trying to get Dobbs to stay in the pocket and toss the ball down the field, and it seemed like every time Dobbs had a rushing attempt it was impromptu and just to get away from pressure. Granted, Daniels is 100X the passer Dobbs was but it makes you think. Perhaps they prefer a more traditional pocket passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 (edited) Was O’Connell just supposed to draw up a new offense halfway through the season, and then teach it to 25 guys in under a week? How they used Dobbs, or didn’t use him, doesn’t tell us anything on how O’Connell would use, or design an offense, around any type of QB. Edited April 19 by SemperFeist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP_allday2869 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SemperFeist said: Was O’Connell just supposed to draw up a new offense halfway through the season, and then teach it to 25 guys in under a week? How they used Dobbs, or didn’t use him, doesn’t tell us anything on how O’Connell would use, or design an offense, around any type of QB. I think you could have easily implemented simple QB runs and options. You can keep the playbook and offense as is and just add some additional plays that fit the existing scheme that could be easily learned in half a practice. Edited April 19 by AP_allday2869 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Just now, AP_allday2869 said: I think you could have easily implemented simple QB runs and options. It’s not that easy to install new concepts of an offense mid season. But, even if you’re just adding a play or two, why? Despite Dobbs’ ability to run, his inability to protect the football was an even greater reason for the team to not change the offense. The reality is that Dobbs simply wasn’t good enough at any aspect to warrant changing the offense. There were no strengths to highlight. So, again, Dobbs’ time in Minnesota shouldn’t be used to draw any meaningful conclusions as to the type of QB that O’Connell ultimately wants. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes22 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 31 minutes ago, AP_allday2869 said: Are we sure that Minnesota would prefer Daniels if he or Maye and even McCarthy were there at the same time? I was just thinking today that when Josh Dobbs was playing, KOC did not design or adapt the offense to Dobbs's only strength: his running ability. KOC was still trying to get Dobbs to stay in the pocket and toss the ball down the field, and it seemed like every time Dobbs had a rushing attempt it was impromptu and just to get away from pressure. Granted, Daniels is 100X the passer Dobbs was but it makes you think. Perhaps they prefer a more traditional pocket passer. I wouldn’t. I would take Maye and McCarthy before Danial’s. But that’s just me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 53 minutes ago, AP_allday2869 said: ...but it makes you think. Perhaps they prefer a more traditional pocket passer. yes, it appears OC's optimum QB is a smart, decisive, skillfully armed, accurate passer, with mobility. Maye McCarthy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikes635 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 On 4/17/2024 at 9:13 AM, VikeManDan said: Out of curiosity how do you have the CBs ranked? You'd have the pick of the litter in Schrager's mock. 1 CB Nate Wiggins Clemson 1st 2 CB Quinyon Mitchell Toledo 1st 3 DB Cooper DeJean Iowa 1st 4 CB Kool-Aid McKinstry Alabama 1st 5 CB Terrion Arnold Alabama 1st 6 CB Kamari Lassiter Georgia 1st-2nd 7 CB Ennis Rakestraw jr Missouri 1st-2nd 8 CB T.J. Tampa Iowa State 2nd 9 CB D.J. James Auburn 2nd 10 CB Josh Newton TCU 2nd This is my top ten 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikes635 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 On 4/17/2024 at 1:16 AM, solidvikingfan said: Do you have any players in particular you want to take at 11? I posted my top ten CB's if we go that route. Assuming JJ, Maye, and Williams is gone I would probably go for a safe 10 year starter type of pick like IOL or IDL, I'm really high on Edge Latu so if we deemed his medicals ok, that would probably be my BPA. I'm sorry I'm responding to this so late I don't remember how the draft played out to start this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikes635 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 16 hours ago, Cearbhall said: I am somewhat of a speculator too. I see McCarthy as a QB that has the tools to possibly be an effective NFL QB. It's just for me, when I have to project that much improvement into a players NFL game, I don't see them as a first-round talent. Guys I want that high in the first round will have fewer question marks and a portfolio of solid game tape. The entire post was good but I specifically agree with this point here. When college football season finished I had him and Daniels for that matter 2nd round prospects, then I crept both of them up as late 1st-early 2nd round for the 5th year option effect. Now I've talked myself into being ok with JJ at #11 if he is there but that is the highest I'm willing to go, trading up to even #8 or 9 is too much imo, Even at 11 I recognize it is a reach but with Den,Oak,Sea,NO, LAR, and PITT between our picks I've decided it's worth the reach. which I know is not popular take on here but ah well. Only 2 QB's worth trading up for imo are Maye and Williams 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikes635 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 7 hours ago, SemperFeist said: I always find the term “arm talent” funny. Because no one wants to include accuracy as part of the talent portion. Even more rare, what about elasticity ( widening throwing windows due to angles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanVike Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 12 hours ago, swede700 said: Inferior arm talent is also an exaggeration. It's not a Favre arm, but it's not Christian Ponder either. Inferior compared to Maye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanVike Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 10 hours ago, SemperFeist said: I always find the term “arm talent” funny. Because no one wants to include accuracy as part of the talent portion. For me, arm talent includes accuracy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikeManDan Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 11 hours ago, vikes635 said: I'm sorry I'm responding to this so late I don't remember how the draft played out to start this topic. I believe it was Peter Schrager's mock, he had us going Arnold at 11 and Nix at 23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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