The bad and the ugly Buffalo edition

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

So it is all the QB?
the bad drafting doesn’t matter anymore as said yesterday?

Ppl are finally starting to catch on to these. 

[big_palooka]

58 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Ok fair enough who were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices?

to answer your question yes I think Jimmy was either 1st or 2nd choice with Brady being #1 which I strange cause you think Brady would’ve told his buddy jmd.

Brady was a lock until he wasn't. Then they tried to trade to 1 overall, but were outbid by Carolina. That was the first 2 choices. Jimmy was the default 3rd guy is my guess after that. 

[Bitty 2.0]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Brady was a lock until he wasn't. Then they tried to trade to 1 overall, but were outbid by Carolina. That was the first 2 choices. Jimmy was the default 3rd guy is my guess after that. 

You don’t see that HC/GM went off half cocked and ****ed up everything. They ****ed up the entire off-season. The Raiders should have gotten more for Carr, Waller and yes Renfrow( who they are unwilling to use). They spent to much money on WR/RB and not enough on the O and D lines. Its just mismanagement of resources  plain and simple.

[Bitty 2.0]

31 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Brady was a lock until he wasn't. Then they tried to trade to 1 overall, but were outbid by Carolina. That was the first 2 choices. Jimmy was the default 3rd guy is my guess after that. 

Brady bought part of the Raiders he was never gonna play.

[Darbsk]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Only to a degree. 

Bad coaching staffs fail with greatQBs all the time- Bill O with Watson. 

Good staffs win with good QBs- McVay went to SBs with Goff and Stafford. 

But good job trying to keep pushing the "Wins are a QB stat, Joshy Daddy just needs his elite QB and he'll show app you haters!" narrative. 

A- for creativity, for sure. 

Man.... you can't engage in any discourse without thinking I'm trying to defend McDaniels can you? Has zero to do with him, but keep pushing your narrative sweetheart. 

There are outliers, sure. I'm talking consistency. If you have a franchise QB, you'll compete. 

Wins are not a QB stat, I've never pushed that. But you damn sure have a better shot at winning and being competitive with a good one. 

Coaching matters, but great QBs mask a lot of their deficiencies. Raiders would put more W's on the board with Rodgers than JImmy G. Coaching can suck and a QB can be great. Both things can be true.

And finding great coaching. Truly great coaching is rare. The McVeys and Andy Reids of the world are hard to come by. 

I kind of agree with both of you, however, I have questions for both:

Are elite QBs always destined to be elite? Or does great coaching make them elite, does it take a good or decent player with potential - someone like Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson - and improve their weaknesses and play to their strengths? Does it polish a rough diamond?

Can a QB ever truly become elite without great coaching? I really don’t know……..

Or, does an elite QB allow coaches to look better and good coaches to seem great?

🤨

[jpaulthe1st]

3 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

You don’t see that HC/GM went off half cocked and ****ed up everything. They ****ed up the entire off-season. The Raiders should have gotten more for Carr, Waller and yes Renfrow( who they are unwilling to use). They spent to much money on WR/RB and not enough on the O and D lines. Its just mismanagement of resources  plain and simple.

Agree with all of this. I want to give this GM/HC combo 3 years but some of the decisions have been downright head scratching and they haven’t maximized value for our outgoing resources (this is part of the problem when you go full on fire sale). 

Edited September 19, 2023 by jpaulthe1st

[NickButera]

3 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I kind of agree with both of you, however, I have questions for both:

Are elite QBs always destined to be elite? Or does great coaching make them elite, does it take a good or decent player with potential - someone like Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson - and improve their weaknesses and play to their strengths? Does it polish a rough diamond?

Can a QB ever truly become elite without great coaching? I really don’t know……..

Or, does an elite QB allow coaches to look better and good coaches to seem great?

🤨

[Bitty 2.0]

11 minutes ago, NickButera said:

Absolutely it makes a huge difference. Patrick Mahomes never would’ve played for Bill Belichick. He freelancers way too much and Bill will be screaming until his head explodes.

[Bitty 2.0]

20 minutes ago, jpaulthe1st said:

Agree with all of this. I want to give this GM/HC combo 3 years but some of the decisions have been downright head scratching and haven’t maximized value for our outgoing resources (this is part of the problem when go full on fire sale). 

Maximizing resource is the only reason New England had a dynasty. How many times did they have two first round and two second round picks? They traded backup quarterbacks 4 times for picks.

[big_palooka]

27 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I kind of agree with both of you, however, I have questions for both:

Are elite QBs always destined to be elite? Or does great coaching make them elite, does it take a good or decent player with potential - someone like Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson - and improve their weaknesses and play to their strengths? Does it polish a rough diamond?

Can a QB ever truly become elite without great coaching? I really don’t know……..

Or, does an elite QB allow coaches to look better and good coaches to seem great?

🤨

I honestly don't know the answer. But would lean yes. I think part of what make a QB elite is above the shoulders and that is something they either have or don't. If they have the natural talent and the football IQ, they will thrive and coaching accelerates their progress. 

Allen is a rare case because his accuracy was terrible. But going back to Wyo, he had the mental makeup and you knew he'd work tirelessly at it. It's rare to see improved accuracy and now teams are convinced they can (Richardson)

I will say this. You rarely see a highly drafted, uber talented QB who flames out post draft with one team go on to thrive with a new coach and become elite. So you can take all that talent and potential in some cases and it doesn't seem to matter if the mental side isn't there. 

To me, the mental side of the game is where the elite thrive and that can't be coached. 

 

 

 

[BackinBlack]

20 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I honestly don't know the answer. But would lean yes. I think part of what make a QB elite is above the shoulders and that is something they either have or don't. If they have the natural talent and the football IQ, they will thrive and coaching accelerates their progress. 

Allen is a rare case because his accuracy was terrible. But going back to Wyo, he had the mental makeup and you knew he'd work tirelessly at it. It's rare to see improved accuracy and now teams are convinced they can (Richardson)

I will say this. You rarely see a highly drafted, uber talented QB who flames out post draft with one team go on to thrive with a new coach and become elite. So you can take all that talent and potential in some cases and it doesn't seem to matter if the mental side isn't there. 

To me, the mental side of the game is where the elite thrive and that can't be coached. 

 

 

 

Fair to say Herbert will never be elite then in your opinion? 
 

I think a new coach would do him wonders. 
I know you’re a fan of his too, and he’s yet to be elite. So May we will just write him off? 
 

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I kind of agree with both of you, however, I have questions for both:

Are elite QBs always destined to be elite? Or does great coaching make them elite, does it take a good or decent player with potential - someone like Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson - and improve their weaknesses and play to their strengths? Does it polish a rough diamond?

Can a QB ever truly become elite without great coaching? I really don’t know……..

Or, does an elite QB allow coaches to look better and good coaches to seem great?

🤨

I'd say no, but with the caveat that it's not always their fault. 

Geno Smith and Alex Smith are particularly good examples of one extreme. Both have all the tools to be elite QBs and at times flirted with hitting that next level. Neither did, but you saw glimpses. One has to wonder what they may have accomplished had their early careers not been derailed so badly. 

On the flip side, we're seeing another Brady-esque thing happening in SF. Brock Purdy doesn't scream elite on paper, but Kyle Shanahan has proven to be one of the better coaches in the league. In 5 years, if Brock settles into a Brady type situation with a couple rings and solid stats, it could be difficult to not call him an elite QB. 

I do think people throw a very vague definition of "elite" around. What makes them elite prospects? Big with a cannon arm and a 4.4 40? Great mechanics? It can't just be athletic profile, because there have been several Josh Allen's in the past that didn't garner the same hype despite similar athletic profiles. It also can't just be between the ears, because we've seen some guys with great heada for the game that just can't do it physically. 

I do think it's rare that a QB can become elite without at least pretty good coaching, but it's hard to tell until it happens. For example, Rodgers came up with McCarthy. I don't think McCarthy is a great coach, I think he's just pretty good. But pretty good unlocked a new level for Rodgers, who people were ready to write off as a dud. Sort of goes back to the Rodgers-Smith debate - flip the roles and what happens? I think Rodgers was the superior QB and probably fares a bit better than Smith did in SF, and with Harbaugh probably makes a few additional SBs. But I think the perceived gap between them is lessened had Smith take. Rodgers' route in GB. Talent doesn't trunp all, but it can help. 

Conversely, I think a bad situation can derail anyone. Andrew Luck got some pretty crap coaching early on and never really reached an elite level consistently. If  Urb stuck around Jacksonville, I don't think Lawrence fares very well. Again, Alex Smith. Dude got screwed by circumstances, but athletically and as far as a head for the game goes, by all accounts he should probably have been an elite QB, or in that super highly regarded next step down. 

If I had to wager, I'd say a QB isn't becoming elite on his own, the same as I don't believe an elite QB is the difference between 3-14 and 14-3. But, an elite QB can be the difference between 7-10 and 10-7 or better. In that regard, a good coach is going to benefit from an elite QB. But I still maintain there's no such thing as the "savior" QB. Seen too many great QB prospects fall victim to crap teams and bad coaching. 

[MrOaktown_56]

I guarantee Drake Maye or Caleb Williams will change the complexion of this team. Hell I'm even excited about Ewers and Shadeur Sanders. 

[NickButera]

20 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I guarantee Drake Maye or Caleb Williams will change the complexion of this team. Hell I'm even excited about Ewers and Shadeur Sanders. 

It would not surprise me if Deion made his way into the staff of where one of his kids go. 

[Bitty 2.0]

20 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I guarantee Drake Maye or Caleb Williams will change the complexion of this team. Hell I'm even excited about Ewers and Shadeur Sanders. 

We should get Prime and his son