Broncofan Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 29 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: I think both @paul-mac and @Broncofan are missing the point of that Klis article I linked to. He is laying out the argument against taking a QB at No. 5. Tomorrow, or sometime soon, he's going to lay out the argument for taking a QB. If I can defend him here for a second, which of these arguments that he makes against taking a QB early is not accurate? It's questionable whether it's wise to double-down on QBs; spending the biggest chunk of your available cap money on one and then turning around and spending your rarely-held premium draft pick on another one. Why draft a QB when we have an announced starter, who we're paying starter's money, when we can get an elite prospect - Chubb, Barkley, Nelson - at No. 5 who helps us compete right away next year. Will Case, and for that matter the other veterans on the team, want another QB "controversy?" Vance proved is not exactly Gary Kubiak when it comes to managing the QB position in-season. How will the team deal with the calls "to play the kid" after Case has a bad game or two? Elway has proven he is adept at landing QBs in free agency - Peyton and now Case - but has not proven the ability to identify good QB prospects in the draft as both he has taken with premium picks - Brock and Paxton - haven't exactly worked out. Our coaching staffs do not have a good track record developing young QBs. All four of the top QB prospects in this year's class have red flags, be it system, size, personality, production, etc. I don't think you can quibble with any of those points. They might not add up to enough to stay away from taking a QB at No. 5, but all are valid arguments against doing so. For the record, I have said several times that I would take Rosen or Darnold at No. 5, and could live with taking Allen at No. 5, but if we opted for Chubb, Nelson or Barkley, I would be fine with that as well. The 3 bolded areas have serious logic fallacies IMO: 1. The mistake is spending on Keenum if he’s nothing more than an average or mediocre talent. Passing on elite ceiling QB talent is a rare missed opp. It’s no coincidence Elway frontloaded Keenum’s deal to leave only 3M dead money with a 2019 trade. 2. Elway’s hit once in FA with QB - Peyton. It was also a year - to - year deal with no long term risk baked in if the neck wasn’t ok. To lump Keenum in with Peyton is awful reasoning. 3. Elway missed badly on Lynch with a 1st round pick. Osweiler was the 2.57 pick. Huge difference in price and the talent pool available. 4. There is no Andrew Luck type can’t miss guy except once a decade. It doesn’t justify passing on QB at the top of the draft because there are flags. It’s identifying the Matt Ryan / Wentz / Goff / Winston & Mariotas early picks that pay off for 5 years in their rookie deal and long term for continuity that you don’t pass up (yes even the last 2 should end up being well worth it) whose flags are easiest to fix / minimize. I see 2 guys clearly in that tier this year - the natural throwers with anticipation and accuracy (Darnold & Rosen). To lump all 4 candidates together is disingenuous unless it’s to address the view Elway has to take QB no matter what. FTR I’m only sold on 2 QB at 1.5 so it’s not like I’m saying it’s QB or bust. But those are some serious logic fallacies in the article. And before ppl think I’m dumping on Klis - I’m not. My bigger concern I stated before is that this isn’t necessarily Klis’s opinion, but that it’s the org mouthpiece work being published. If there is a counter piece to going QB great. If not I’m less concerned if it’s his opinion than I am of the org’s thinking process in draft evaluation there, given the logic fallacies present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAngryAmerican Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Broncofan said: And before ppl think I’m dumping on Klis - I’m not. My bigger concern I stated before is that this isn’t necessarily Klis’s opinion. But it’s the org mouthpiece work being published. If there is a counter piece to going QB great. If not I’m less concerned if it’s his opinion than I am of the org’s thinking process in draft evaluation there, given the logic fallacies present. Here is the pro-QB-at-5 argument. http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/sports/part-ii-why-the-broncos-should-take-a-qb-with-their-no-5-pick/73-533539628 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: Here is the pro-QB-at-5 argument. http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/sports/part-ii-why-the-broncos-should-take-a-qb-with-their-no-5-pick/73-533539628 Much happier then to see a counter piece. It’s also more likely this is just an org mouthpiece article. Which given it has pros and cons - all for. Although the pros for Darnold / Rosen should far outweigh the cons given the logic fallacies in article 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-mac Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Just now, AnAngryAmerican said: Here is the pro-QB-at-5 argument. http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/sports/part-ii-why-the-broncos-should-take-a-qb-with-their-no-5-pick/73-533539628 And even in the “pro QB” piece he concludes that they shouldn’t take a QB at 5. The only logical reason to arrive at that conclusion is if your belief if that Case Keenum has the ability to be a long time starter for this time, but for me, I think Keenum is essentially an equivalent to San Bradford in Philly or Mike Glennon in Chicago, who were basically brought in to provide insurance in case they missed out on draft day or their guy wasn’t ready to start. If Elway and co are viewing Keenum as a long term solution then that’s seriously worrying because I don’t think he’s really any better then Trevor Siemian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFM18 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I don't see Elway going QB at 5 now. I know he's saying it in pressers but that's just drumming up trade interest. I think Elway does view Keenum as the solution and it's why I'm not very optimistic about this season. Yes he had a good 2017/18 season but that was with a very competitive Vikings team. I hope he's getting it right but at the moment I'm not convinced he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Klis has mentioned Calvin Ridley far too many times for my liking. That tells me if we trade back with Buffalo, he's the pick at 12 if available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLikeDefense Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 He knows he needs to improve perhaps this is a start Lynch training with Alex Guerrero. I’m skeptical about Guerrero’s nutritional theories but I do think he has insightful knowledge. Problem is that Lynch just sucks at being a QB and don’t see this being game changing for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, iLikeDefense said: He knows he needs to improve perhaps this is a start Lynch training with Alex Guerrero. I’m skeptical about Guerrero’s nutritional theories but I do think he has insightful knowledge. Problem is that Lynch just sucks at being a QB and don’t see this being game changing for him. It's not going to move the needle, that's fair. Guerrero is a total quack, for what it's worth. He's a snake oil salesman as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, broncos67 said: It's not going to move the needle, that's fair. Guerrero is a total quack, for what it's worth. He's a snake oil salesman as far as I'm concerned. No if he can get lynch to be bendable like Gumby at his size he'll be available at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 16 minutes ago, broncos67 said: It's not going to move the needle, that's fair. Guerrero is a total quack, for what it's worth. He's a snake oil salesman as far as I'm concerned. The piece on the fallout in the NE org that led to Guerrero getting banned from the sidelines because of his influence on TB12 is fascinating. Good that Brady felt it helped him but yeah there’s no real reason to believe it’s because of Guerrero’a methods alone. https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.si.com/nfl/2017/12/21/tom-brady-tb12-patriots-alex-guerrero-banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLikeDefense Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, broncos67 said: It's not going to move the needle, that's fair. Guerrero is a total quack, for what it's worth. He's a snake oil salesman as far as I'm concerned. Would agree with this. Snake oil salesman lol! Creative! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 33 minutes ago, broncos67 said: Klis has mentioned Calvin Ridley far too many times for my liking. That tells me if we trade back with Buffalo, he's the pick at 12 if available. I would be unbelievably upset if that’s what we did. The most wasteful use of a top 12 pick that I can think of given who we can get Rd2-3 at WR and the other players on the board at 1.12. A huge no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 21 hours ago, Broncofan said: Much happier then to see a counter piece. It’s also more likely this is just an org mouthpiece article. Which given it has pros and cons - all for. Although the pros for Darnold / Rosen should far outweigh the cons given the logic fallacies in article 1. Those are fallacies based solely on your opinion. I don't find the logic you refer to as very flawed. makes a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Anybody have thoughts on getting Austin Fleer in the 5th? We're bringing him in for a workout. D2 guys scare me but he was an all american. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoSojia Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 I just can't convince myself that Keenum is the longer term answer. He's had one decent year on a stack team that played 10 of their games in domed stadiums. I don't think the FO is convinced either, or else they wouldn't putting all of this work into evaluating QBs. You can talk smokescreens, but the interest is clearly there. IMO, It would be a mistake to pass up drafting a franchise QB JUST because we have Keenum. I don't want jeopardize our future success because of some belief in a stopgap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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