Will Tom Brady Become The Greatest...

[lancerman]

55 minutes ago, showtime said:

How in the heck did I get defensive?  I just brought up some other points because your point about Peyton Manning was good.  QB is the most important position in football... a game that is way more team orientated than basketball is.  I haven't read a bunch of post in this thread, but the title is asking if Brady wins another Super Bowl would he be considered the greatest athlete ever and the answer is no.

Plus, according to the thread title and what this thread is actually about, how can we not bring up Brady's cheating?  Look at some of the guys who are consensus top athletes of all-time:  Jordan, Ali, Gretzky.  I don't recall any cheating allegations against any of them.  Therefore, that alone disqualifies Brady from being on the same tier as those guys.

Because you made a point to interject yourself into a conversation you weren't part of and the minute I refuted your point you completely abandoned the discussion and ran to bring up completely irrelevant points that I wasn't arguing. There was no point to making that additional post besides to create another completely seperate argument than the one I was making. 

I don't even mention the cheating thing in my last post. But let's go through this, in court the NFL admitted they had no direct evidence of Brady cheating. I don't know where you get off thinking you have the authority to qualify or disqualify people on being on whatever tier, but whatever. 

[lancerman]

20 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

Phil Jackson is overrated. The dude rode the wave of two of the league's best 2's to ever play. Jordan made the triangle work in Chicago. If it werent for Jordan, Phil Jackson may have ended up an absolute nobody. 

And outside of Pippen (who was top shelf, no doubt), and Grant (a solid role player and 3rd outlet) Jordan's supporting cast was, to be perfectly honest, far from stellar. Role players. Jordan was the Tom Brady of the Bulls and Belichick was the Phil Jackson. Jackson kept a revolving door of spare parts around Jordan (some better, some worse) that fit the roles and Jordan made it work year after year.

I cant stand Jordan. And I think Magic is the GOAT, not Jordan. But I think youre overstating the level of help Jordan had compared to Lebron. King James hasnt exactly been out there on an island. Dude has had some pretty good help for the most part.

Phil Jackson still has 11 championships, 5 of which are without Jordan. If it weren't for Brady, Belichick might have ended up an absolute nobody as he's only made a single playoff without Brady. 

Have you heard of a guy named Dennis Rodman? HOF'er? Was with Jordan during his second threepeat? 

The Cavs were trash when Lebron left, they were championship caliber when he came back. Name a single team Jordan faced in the Finals as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams Lebron faced? 

Again my point is, that if someone is going to say "well Manning and Favre are close to Brady", then my answer is "who cares cause Lebron, Wilt, Kobe, and Magic are just as close to Jordan".

It's a redundant argument thing. Any argument you can really make against Brady similarly applies to Jordan in some capacity or another. People act like Jordan was untouchable. He's the GOAT, but he is as benefited by circumstance as Brady ever was.

[Carmen Cygni]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

 If it weren't for Brady, Belichick might have ended up an absolute nobody as he's only made a single playoff without Brady.

Just stop.

 

[lancerman]

3 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Just stop.

 

This thread is absolute dirt at this point. It's like people don't read posts or read them out of context. 

[showtime]

39 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Because you made a point to interject yourself into a conversation you weren't part of and the minute I refuted your point you completely abandoned the discussion and ran to bring up completely irrelevant points that I wasn't arguing. There was no point to making that additional post besides to create another completely seperate argument than the one I was making. 

I don't even mention the cheating thing in my last post. But let's go through this, in court the NFL admitted they had no direct evidence of Brady cheating. I don't know where you get off thinking you have the authority to qualify or disqualify people on being on whatever tier, but whatever. 

Because it was my first two post in the thread, I was addressing other things as well.  I already said you made a good point with your Peyton Manning example, not sure how else you want me to say it.  I've said that two times now.  

You didn't mention cheating, I did... because it's a valid topic to bring up in a thread asking if someone is going to be considered the greatest athlete ever.  Where do I say I have authority over anything, I'm just talking about Brady's accusations calling him a cheater.  The NFL witch hunted the face of their league over a cheating allegation they had no evidence over, yet they still continued to pursue it.  You can spin it however you want, my point was, Michael Jordan was never accused of cheating.  So how can a player who has been accused of cheating from the actual league he plays in be considered the best ever?

[Shady Slim]

already think that he's the goat QB however to me the fact that there are still debates about that eliminates him from goat athlete contention, and it's why i'm fully adamant the greatest sportsperson of all time is gretzky - bc of how much better he is than all his contemporaries. don bradman in cricket is the only comparison with a test batting average of 99.94 (next highest is like 62, and if you average 45 then that's a pretty good average), but because of the era he played and such you couldn't really give him that moniker 

[Non-Issue]

3 hours ago, lancerman said:

Phil Jackson still has 11 championships, 5 of which are without Jordan. If it weren't for Brady, Belichick might have ended up an absolute nobody as he's only made a single playoff without Brady. 

Have you heard of a guy named Dennis Rodman? HOF'er? Was with Jordan during his second threepeat? 

The Cavs were trash when Lebron left, they were championship caliber when he came back. Name a single team Jordan faced in the Finals as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams Lebron faced? 

Again my point is, that if someone is going to say "well Manning and Favre are close to Brady", then my answer is "who cares cause Lebron, Wilt, Kobe, and Magic are just as close to Jordan".

It's a redundant argument thing. Any argument you can really make against Brady similarly applies to Jordan in some capacity or another. People act like Jordan was untouchable. He's the GOAT, but he is as benefited by circumstance as Brady ever was.

Phil Jackson traded Jordan for Kobe Bryant. Like I said, overrated.

Of course I have heard of Rodman. The guy that played with Jordan a whole three (out of 15) seasons. Beyond that, who do you have? Kukoc? And then? Spin me this web of talent surrounding Jordan. Like I said... a revolving door of role players. 

Have you ever heard of Dwayne Wade? Chris Bosh? Kyrie Irving? Kevin Love? Isaiah Thomas? 

Stop trying to push this argument that Jordan had some sort of advantage over Lebron in the personnel department. He didnt. He had crap for support in his early days. But from the second he took his talents to south beach he has had some really good players around him. If anything, I would say the support for the two evens out.

No team Jordan ever faced in the finals was as good as GS with Durant or the GS the Cavs beat the year before. But the regular GS? Or the Spurs? Or any other teams Lebron faced? Hell yes he faced teams that good. All of the teams he faced in the finals were that good. He faced some GREAT teams. 

If anything, I think it would be safe to argue that Lebron has been on a couple "super teams" himself. When was Jordan ever on a "super team?"

I understand the argument youre trying to make. And I agree that anyone saying "Jordan, and it isnt close" is either buying into the hype or is letting nostalgia bury their senses. But the personnel part of your argument isnt going to stick. You cant argue Jordan had some sort of advantage in the personnel department. He didnt.
 

[Plat2]

8 hours ago, lancerman said:

Era's a big part of Jordan's legend. He wouldn't stand out further from Bird and Magic anymore than Brady to Manning/Favre. Even in the era after he wouldn't stand out much from Kobe/Lebron. 

Jordan would definitely stand out against those guys, even when Jordan was young he was beginning to set himself apart from Magic and Bird (scored 63 against vaunted Birds Celtics at the Boston Gardenbut lost). He beat Magic in the Finals (although that was towards the ending of Magics prime). And Kobe, as great as he is, Kobe is pretty much Jordan-lite. Lebron would give Jordan a challenge but judging from his history I dont think he would have the mental fortitude to defeat Jordan. Face it, Jordan is THE basketball GOAT, plain and simple...and when we factor in global influence and what he did for the game of basketball...I mean yeah, he stands alone.

[AlNFL19]

On 1/14/2018 at 12:03 AM, gopherwrestler said:

Tom Brady isn't even as good as Joe Montana

Ha.

[Pats#1]

I refuse to vote because there is no "why is this a thread?" Option 

[Plat2]

6 hours ago, lancerman said:

Yawn...

I watched Jordan. He was my favorite athlete as a kid. Aside from Boston sports I was like every other kid who idolized Jordan, in fact in the 90's I had more Chicago Bulls gear than Patriots gear. However, I watched Lebron too. Lebron is a better athlete and a bigger difference maker to his teams than Jordan was. 

Lebron played stiffer competition than Jordan in most of Finals, Lebron played on worse teams in ALL of his finals. Jordan never played a super team in a final. Lebron never had the coaching excellence or consistency that Jordan had. Lebron's teams fell completely apart when he left them and became league worst teams. Jordan's team was still good when he took a year off it took Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Phil Jackson leaving the same year to dismantle the Chicago Bulls. If Lebron left the Cavs and everyone else stayed they'd be a losing team.

Feel free to try to dispute anything I said. 

 

So you are going to bring up LeBron facing super teams when LeBron had a part in forming the first super team in the current era that helped start the trend? Remember the Heatles? "not 1 , not 2, not 3....". The inferior Dirk-led Mavs beat the Big Three (LeBron 0 points in the 4th quarter), then the "system team" Spurs tossed them around in 5 too while Lebron getting contained by a 24 year old Kawhi Leonard.

[lancerman]

Just now, Plat2 said:

Jordan would definitely stand out against those guys, even when Jordan was young he was beginning to set himself apart from Magic and Bird (scored 63 against vaunted Birds Celtics at the Boston Gardenbut lost). He beat Magic in the Finals (although that was towards the ending of Magics prime). And Kobe, as great as he is, Kobe is pretty much Jordan-lite. Lebron would give Jordan a challenge but judging from his history I dont think he would have the mental fortitude to defeat Jordan. Face it, Jordan is THE basketball GOAT, plain and simple...and when we factor in global influence and what he did for the game of basketball...I mean yeah, he stands alone.

If you put Jordan in the exact same timeframe as Bird and Magic he patently wouldn't. The Lakers and Celtics in the 80's were both good enough to compete with the 90's Bulls and get wins off them. He wouldn't have 6 championships. Bird had arguably the greatest peak of all time. Magic was sensational his whole career. He might have come out of that era as the top guy, but he wouldn't not come out of that era as shiny and as accomplished as he did by having his prime years in the 90's. That's not even talking about those Detroit Piston teams that would be in the mix. 

Also ONCE AGAIN, people not reading this thread and reading the overall point of made, that I've explicitly stated MANY times. You aren't convincing me that Jordan's the GOAT. I already said MANY times that he was the GOAT. I said that he benefitted and much of his mystique is based in the fact that in addition to being a sensational player he had the best circumstance of any player in NBA history. Great coach with the perfect scheme that proved he could win elsewhere (you can say he had great players all the time, whatever he still won), great supporting cast and his 2nd three peat he had two HOF'ers on his squad. Played in beneficial era where the competition was lesser than the era directly preceding and succeeding it. So when people say Brady's success is a product of his circumstance, so is Jordan to a large extent. 

Put Jordan's prime and best teams in the 80's and he's in the mix with Magic's Laker's, Bird's Celtics, and the Bad Boy Pistons. He isn't coming out as good as he did in the 90's. Put him in the 2000's and he's competing with the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, the Spurs, the big Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, and the Kobe/Gasol second run of the Lakers. He isn't coming out with 6 titles. Granted he'll cannibalize everyone else, he probably will end up with the most titles, but he's facing a much harder path. 

 

[lancerman]

4 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

So you are going to bring up LeBron facing super teams when LeBron had a part in forming the first super team in the current era that helped start the trend? Remember the Heatles? "not 1 , not 2, not 3....". The inferior Dirk-led Mavs beat the Big Three (LeBron 0 points in the 4th quarter), then the "system team" Spurs tossed them around in 5 too while Lebron getting contained by a 24 year old Kawhi Leonard.

Actually the Garnett/Pierce/Allen Celtics were the first super team of the current era. And Lebron left to form the Heat mainly as a response to that. 

[lancerman]

6 minutes ago, Pats#1 said:

I refuse to vote because there is no "why is this a thread?" Option 

It's so dumb. So dumb. Brady/Gretzky/Jordan/Ruth are generally going to be regarded as the GOAT's of the 4 main sports. Ali is largely going to be seen as the boxing GOAT (especially to the mainstream). Phelps is the GOAT swimmer. Nicklaus is the GOAT golfer. Federer is the GOAT tennis player. Etc. 

That's the general perception by the mainstream public. It's impossible to really compare across sports. Even more difficult when you factor in impact on the team sports vs individual sports. And historians of those sports will argue for and against those conceptions (boxing people will argue Lewis or Robinson, baseball people argue Cobb alot, basketball people argue Wilt or Magic sometimes, hockey people argue Orr and Howe, football people argue Montana and Rice and Brown, etc etc. 

[Plat2]

That's good and all but thats all just theory and all just your opinion, we will never know how good he would do in those eras because life isnt a video game, Jordan faced who he faced and BEAT THEM ALL in the Finals. He made a ton of clutch shots and played lock down defense on some of the most elite guards during that era. Its funny how you try to make it seem like the 90s were weak when there were alot of good and great teams, Jordans Bulls just made the era look weak.