Will Tom Brady Become The Greatest...

[childofpudding]

Wouldnt even know how to judge something like that, and dont care.

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, patriotsheatyan said:

In other words, you don’t have career stats and are posting multiple stat lines from a single season (2007) and several “records” from an incomplete 2016 season that wouldn’t have held in 16 games. 

 

You also let us know that Rodgers efficiency numbers are higher, but claim that it is only because Brady played less than three seasons before the rule changes in 04, while ignoring that Manning  played more than three extra seasons than Brady did. You also claim Brady had higher efficiency than Manning, when Manning had a higher passer rating than Brady 9/13 seasons they played alongside each other with one of those seasons being Manning’s zombie season (and this is while Manning is throwing for more yardage 9/13 seasons with one of those also being Manning’s final year).

Then you claim that Rodger’s is only slightly more efficient than Brady, when Brady’s passer rating has only hit Rodger’s career average passering rating four times in seventeen seasons as a starter.

 

I posted mostly career stats. Brady's roughly top 3/4 in bulk stats and top 2/3 in efficiency stats. Nobody is that high in both.

Yeah Brady played 4 seasons where the rules were very different and efficiency numbers were largely compressed compared to this era and to argue that didn't have an effect is pure bias. Brady and Rodgers are relatively neck and neck in stats across the board in common years played in the same era (especially when you adjust for games missed between the two of them). And that's not just efficiency stats either.

Put it this way, 6 of the 10 greatest passer ratings for a career are owned by played who debuted post 2004. Brady/Manning/Young/Brees/Warner (there's a tie at 10 if you were counting) are the oldest to be in the top 10. Brady has the highest among that group. If you go by common seasons played with Rodgers (starting in 2009 since Brady was injured in 08) he's at 101.4 and just 3 points behind Rodgers. And Rodgers will never catch him in bulk stats. Also if we are being completely honest both Brady and Manning didn't sit as long as Rodgers, so Rodgers got the benefit of playing not only in an era that has yielded more efficiency, he got to bypass the early years Brady, Manning and virtually every other QB in the top 10 of passer rating had to deal with and drag their ratings down. 

Brady had a higher passer rating than Manning and he also trounces him INT%.  When Manning retired, Brady would have needed to play at his current rate for the next 10 seasons to surpass him INT's. It's a massive discrepancy. Hell even if you take out Manning's zombie season he's still below Brady. 

You aren't looking at it too analytically at all and you're comparing it to other sports where era wasn't as much of a factor

 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, patriotsheatyan said:

Who’s almost every analyst? Sports journalists? NFL commentators being paid to hype up games? Millennial son Twitter? Gen X’ers on NFL Network?

Oh and just to double down on this.... the answer to your question is virtually everyone by consensus. If you took a poll on this board for best QB, Brady wins in a landslide and it's not close, when you poll sports writers, it's not close. When you poll fans, it's not close. When you poll players, it's not close. When you poll coaches and execs (and this actually happened), Brady wins and it's not close. 

There's no metric of opinion where you wouldn't be in the vast minority. And not for nothing, QB's have been judged by wins and post season success forever. Joe Montana was called the GOAT for years largely off only post season. And I can make a good case for Brady without that (and that's a category he dominates like no other).

[Carmen Cygni]

A football player can never be considered one of the greatest sports players ever because as individuals they are inflicted with the greatest impact of outside influence of all sports by quite a margin. Now an NFL coach is a a completely different story, and someone like Belichick could/should be named as the one of the greatest coaches ever, but certainly not a single player.

 

57 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

So what stats does Jordan have that put him above everyone else?

 

Games started/played.

 

 

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Carmen Cygni said:

A football player can never be considered one of the greatest sports players ever because as individuals they are inflicted with the greatest impact of outside influence of all sports by quite a margin. Now an NFL coach is a a completely different story, and someone like Belichick could/should be named as the one of the greatest coaches ever, but certainly not a single player.

I think it's foolish to say any athlete could be at all because sports are so different. But when you have sports like boxing, track, gymnastiscs, swimming, wrestling, etc where it's just one person, I put the best in those over the best in any team sport. People can scream about soccer all they want or how great Jordan is. No single player in those amounts to anything with bad pieces around him. 

Also their will always be a slant towards the modern era

[Kip Smithers]

No, not even close.

[Plat2]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Well based off the argument he's responding to yeah he does. Because Jordan's wins and championships were as much a function of his team and coach if not more than Brady. 

Unlike Brady... Jordan's coach won 5 championships without him including another 3 peat immediately after going to another a team.

Unlike Brady... Jordan had easily the most stacked team as far as talent of his era when he was playing. 

Unlike Brady... Jordan played in one of the least competitive era's of his sports history while there's a strong argument Brady played in the most competitive and hardest to consistently win era in his sports history.

And then while Brady is actually actively challenging for alot of the records in his sport, Wilt Chamberlain actually owns most stats. In fact championships are the ONLY thing that keeps Jordan over Wilt. If we want to play that game.

Wilt played in a different era,  no way anybody would average 50 points per game or 25 rebounds per game in Jordans era or in todays game, Wilt even averaged 48.5 minutes per game one season, so you cant really compare them...the game is only 48 minutes, so obviously Wilts stats are skewed. Whereas, its the other way around with Brady as he is playing in a more pass friendly NFL compared to past eras.

Jordan had a stacked team but he still had a lot of competition with a lot of great teams that he had to beat, there are a lot of Hall Of Famers that DONT have a ring BECAUSE of Jordan, like Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley. Phil Jackson is a top 3 coach of all time but its not like he led mediocre teams to championships, he coached 2 top other 15 players of all time in Kobe and Shaq when he won his other rings. 

Jordan is also perfect in the Finals (6/6) getting Finals MVP in all 6 of them and is Hall of Famer on both sides of the ball (1x defensive player of the year, 9 time all defensive team) obviously Brady can only play on offense but it just shows the greatness of MJ. Brady is the greatest NFL player of all time IMO, is right up there with all the other GOATS from the other sports like MJ, Gretzky, Ali, Pele, etc. but you don't have to tear MJ down to prop Brady up.

[Pats#1]

Reverse jinx thread? 

[UtahUtesFan]

I'll crown him the goat in all sports when he's in the Super Bowl at 43-45 years old.

[lancerman]

2 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

Wilt played in a different era,  no way anybody would average 50 points per game or 25 rebounds per game in Jordans era or in todays game, Wilt even averaged 48.5 minutes per game one season, so you cant really compare them...the game is only 48 minutes, so obviously Wilts stats are skewed. Whereas, its the other way around with Brady as he is playing in a more pass friendly NFL compared to past eras.

Jordan had a stacked team but he still had a lot of competition with a lot of great teams that he had to beat, there are a lot of Hall Of Famers that DONT have a ring BECAUSE of Jordan, like Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley. Phil Jackson is a top 3 coach of all time but its not like he led mediocre teams to championships, he coached 2 top other 15 players of all time in Kobe and Shaq when he won his other rings. 

Jordan is also perfect in the Finals (6/6) getting Finals MVP in all 6 of them and is Hall of Famer on both sides of the ball (1x defensive player of the year, 9 time all defensive team) obviously Brady can only play on offense but it just shows the greatness of MJ. Brady is the greatest NFL player of all time IMO, is right up there with all the other GOATS from the other sports like MJ, Gretzky, Ali, Pele, etc. but you don't have to tear MJ down to prop Brady up.

And I'm not tearing MJ down, I'm just saying when threads like this pop up their is a double standard where qualifiers are placed on Brady that exist for MJ as well. They are remarkably similar.

[Plat2]

Also, Jordan is pretty much the consensus GOAT in basketball whereas Brady still has some competition with Jerry Rice for the GOAT in football. I do agree though that conversations like this where you are going across other sports is going to be never ending, there's too many things you have to factor in and bias will play a role as football fans will be biased towards the football GOAT and the basketball fan will be biased towards the basketball GOAT, etc. Lets just say that it speaks volumes about Brady when he is being compared to the likes of Jordan, Gretzky, Ali, etc.

[VegasOdds101]

22 hours ago, 3rivers said:

back when OL had their hand in the dirt on passing downs, when DL were allowed to KO QB's, contact on WR's were allowed, defenceless WR was not a thought, gloves and one handed catches of today for examples. Rod Woodson said Marino would throw for 10K yards in todays game, I went conservative and 7.5K .  Of course he also never played in a dome stadium half his career like some QB's , but the weather of Miami . 

He doesn't need to play for BB, why not the steelers

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous post.  Also, with the exception defenseless reciever/ blow to the head rule the rules haven't changed since 1978, they just call them a bit tighter.  Marino was my favorite QB in the 80's and with the NFL now allowing games to be posted on YouTube I've gone back and watched a bunch of his games.  His receivers aren't being touched hardly ever.  CB's were often 10 yards off the LOS and there wasn't a lot of huge hits to the head.  The whole thing is a myth perpetrated by the players of the 80s, the proof is in the videos.

As far as Marino was concerned, he took the NFL by storm very early on being really the first QB to consistantly throw the ball the inside the 5 yard line.  Also he just threw the ball a ton (for back then) which does inflate the stats.  Also defenses weren't nearly as sophisticated as today's defenses.  After Marinos 4th season, the NFL figured him out and he never really had seasons like his first 4.  Then again he still threw a lot of INTs even in those first 4 seasons.

Drives are extended more in today's game from blows to the head (either defenseless receiver or on the QB) but the players are still getting hit and knocked out by much bigger players today.  That in no way makes it easier to pass.  Also replay takes away almost as much as the blow to the head gives.  Defenses also get to push receivers out of bounds where before they would still call it a catch.  I don't see any difference overall in difficulty it's just QBs are just better as a result in playing in pro offenses long before entering the pros.  Also the systems are more QB friendly, shorter quicker passes, which help stats.  Montana would have been Montana in today's game, and I'm very confident Marino would have been Marino if not a tad worse.  He certainly isn't throwing for 7500 yds unless they make it a 90 minute game.

[Iamcanadian]

On 1/14/2018 at 12:03 AM, gopherwrestler said:

Tom Brady isn't even as good as Joe Montana

Yeah, he is better!!!

[Mazrimiv]

I won't pretend to have read through this entire thread, but IMO football is such a team driven sport, not football player can really be in a position to be labeled the greatest sports player of all time.  They simply have no way to make the kind of impact of an MJ type player in basketball, and football itself is a very US-centric sport relative to basketball or soccer.  MJ revolutionized the entire game of basketball when he was in his prime, and was a globally recognized superstar.  Brady himself has not had anywhere near that kind of impact on the game of football, and is a mid-tier celebrity at best outside of the US.

[Iamcanadian]

1 hour ago, VegasOdds101 said:

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous post.  Also, with the exception defenseless reciever/ blow to the head rule the rules haven't changed since 1978, they just call them a bit tighter.  Marino was my favorite QB in the 80's and with the NFL now allowing games to be posted on YouTube I've gone back and watched a bunch of his games.  His receivers aren't being touched hardly ever.  CB's were often 10 yards off the LOS and there wasn't a lot of huge hits to the head.  The whole thing is a myth perpetrated by the players of the 80s, the proof is in the videos.

As far as Marino was concerned, he took the NFL by storm very early on being really the first QB to consistantly throw the ball the inside the 5 yard line.  Also he just threw the ball a ton (for back then) which does inflate the stats.  Also defenses weren't nearly as sophisticated as today's defenses.  After Marinos 4th season, the NFL figured him out and he never really had seasons like his first 4.  Then again he still threw a lot of INTs even in those first 4 seasons.

Drives are extended more in today's game from blows to the head (either defenseless receiver or on the QB) but the players are still getting hit and knocked out by much bigger players today.  That in no way makes it easier to pass.  Also replay takes away almost as much as the blow to the head gives.  Defenses also get to push receivers out of bounds where before they would still call it a catch.  I don't see any difference overall in difficulty it's just QBs are just better as a result in playing in pro offenses long before entering the pros.  Also the systems are more QB friendly, shorter quicker passes, which help stats.  Montana would have been Montana in today's game, and I'm very confident Marino would have been Marino if not a tad worse.  He certainly isn't throwing for 7500 yds unless they make it a 90 minute game.

Could not disagree more, according to Jimmy Johnson, Marino was his own worse enemy. Johnson, when he became HC at Miami, tried to explain to Marino, that you win championships by running the ball the way the Cowboys did, but Marino absolutely refused to change even a small part of how he played QB. 80% of the time, when Johnson signaled in a running play, Marino would change it to a passing play, so eventually Jimmy just quite trying to get a championship out of Marino, who was strictly about stats, winning championships was not a priority for him!!!

I believe Marino would love today's game, with all its wide open passing. His receivers were very small by today's standards, small ever for his era and DB's had to play off the LOS in order to contain them!!! They were all basically scatbacks with great hands. Also, Al Davis invented the bump and run defense, where his DB's bumped and held, WR's well past five yards, in fact over the whole course of a route and made passing attacks secondary in the NFL to running the ball. That has all ended in the current era, where WR's basically are free to run their routes without interference, which is why, offenses turned almost totally to passing attacks and WR's turned from a secondary position on a football team to a primary one, basivcally replacing the RB in that regards.

The NFL did not get serious about head shots till the NFLPA sued them over concussions, much later than the 80's, after the NFL lost that suit, they got serious about calling head shots.

As for Montana, he was sensational in Bill Walsh's WCO, an attack that Walsh invented and it took a decade for the DC's to catch up with that offense, but they finally did and few teams use it today, because teams know how to defend it. Very Hard to say, how Montana would do in today's game without his reliance on the WCO against defenses that simply did not have a clue on how to defend against it.

I think he would adjust all right, but he might not have the same level of success that he enjoyed under Bill Walsh??? Very hard to say!!!