lancerman Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Just now, Forge said: Prove it. Logic fallacy. You made the affirmative statement. Burden isn't on me to prove a negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, lancerman said: Logic fallacy. You made the affirmative statement. Burden isn't on me to prove a negative. I didn't. I only acknowledge that it's a possibility, which inherently means that I acknowledge the possibility that he wouldn't be as good. You're the one who gave a definitive answer. Nobody knows how it would have happened if BB and Manning were paired...again, that's the whole freaking point. I've never had a fan of the team of the player / coach I'm defending actually continually go up against me...this is a whole new experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, PapaShogun said: Different situation. Different organization. Different coach. Different era of football. You don't know what BB would have have done with a 23 year old Marino or Montana in 2001 onward in this era. Just like we don't know what Tom Brady would have been like in Tampa Bay under Rich McKay and Hugh Cluverhouse as an owner in the 1980's. Marino had Shula. Montana had Walsh and a WCO offense nobody knew how to defend. Not the best guys to say they would have been better with a defensive minded coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, lancerman said: Marino had Shula. Montana had Walsh and a WCO offense nobody knew how to defend. Not the best guys to say they would have been better with a defensive minded coach And they also played in a different era, not in the modern day AFC East. The conferences were a lot stronger than they are today. Walsh's system wasn't so revolutionary that teams didn't know how to defend it either. Or else Steve Deburg would have been fine at QB instead of Montana. You go back and watch games from that period, a lot of the same sets and formations are being done by other teams. Regardless, still different circumstances. 23 year old Marino in the situation Brady stepped into during the 2001 season could merit the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Forge said: I didn't. I only acknowledge that it's a possibility, which inherently means that I acknowledge the possibility that he wouldn't be as good. You're the one who gave a definitive answer. Nobody knows how it would have happened if BB and Manning were paired...again, that's the whole freaking point. Nobody knows because it hasn't happened. Logically I can look at it and say. -Manning consistently was given better receivers over his career than Belichick gave Brady -Manning consistently had less turnover on offense and defense -Manning's offensive systems and schemes stayed relatively the same while Brady's changed more frequently. -I don't think Belichick is giving up control of the offense to Manning So I don't think that bodes well for Manning. I can't say anything definitively, but looking at the situations.... I can say there's enough differences to put it largely in question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Asciimo said: tomlin is a terrible coach still riding the laurels of his 1 SB won with cowher's team agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 23 minutes ago, lancerman said: Nobody knows because it hasn't happened. Logically I can look at it and say. -Manning consistently was given better receivers over his career than Belichick gave Brady -Manning consistently had less turnover on offense and defense -Manning's offensive systems and schemes stayed relatively the same while Brady's changed more frequently. -I don't think Belichick is giving up control of the offense to Manning So I don't think that bodes well for Manning. I can't say anything definitively, but looking at the situations.... I can say there's enough differences to put it largely in question The funny thing is, you and I are actually on the same side here, and actually believe the same thing (that the success is not guaranteed / unlikely), but I think you're taking my argument about replacing Brady as a real argument of something I believe, which isn't the case. I got a little caught up in the other side of it, I'll admit lol. I'm using the same argument you are using here to support BB as a great head coach against other head coaches; taking evidence of other great coaches and great quarterbacks together, and their success in super bowls compared to that of BB/Brady and the Pats. Of course I can't prove that another coach wouldn't have had the same success, but I find it unlikely. The original comment I was posting about was this: Quote How many coaches would get as far as Belichick with Brady? You can say the same thing about Belichick you're saying about Tomlin, yet nobody second guesses Belichick. To me, seeing the success of BB with Brady against other great coaches with other great quarterbacks suggests to me that you can't just replace BB and still have the success the Pats have had, which is in the same spirit as the argument you are making about why manning wouldn't have had the same success (in that there are extremely few HC/QB combos that have won multiple super bowls together, and none who have won 5 while going to 7). Of course we can never know for sure, but we just have things that support our opinion. I think a comment like this one (the one I'm originally replying to) is completely unsupported and purely opinion based. So in order to show that, I flipped it by changing it from BB to Brady and just arbitrarily saying that they have even more success or the same amount of success with Manning / Young / Rodgers or anyone of comparable skill to Brady. Completely unsupported, solely opinion based, but I can say it just as easily as "how many coaches would get as far as BB with Brady". I was trying to show the flaw in this comment by the other poster. I hope that clears it up as I don't think that I was 100% clear in my other posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyto36 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: All I know is that I'm pretty sure 20 or more head coaches could get further or at the very least where Tomlin got this year if they had Roethlisberger, Brown, Bell, Bryant and the 9th overall scoring defense. Not to mention 2 probowlers and an all pro on the OL and JuJu. The team is loaded. They had no business losing to the Jags. 1 hour ago, celestial said: Tomlin makes roster decisions, hiring decisions, gameday decisions, and whatever else like Belichick does. The Steelers reached the quarterfinals. They broke offensive records and scored 5 TDs today. Tomlin's timeout at the exact right time enabled Big Ben's TD before half time. He's a Superbowl winning HCs with one of the best playoff records in the league. You're thinking he's "an idiot with a big mouth" is your bias. Evidence says Tomlin is the man and Pittsburgh is where they are because of him. lol. 1 hour ago, celestial said: By DVOA, Tomlin's Steeler's are the 9th ranked overall defense. By DVOA, Tomlin's Steelers are the 7th ranked overall offense. I rest my case. And one and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 59 minutes ago, showtime said: He's definitely not a great coach, but this thread is just wrong. "Pittsburgh isn't good because of Tomlin"... Well they are a good team and have been since he's been there. The Cowher talk isn't valid because he has won another Superbowl after the first one. Today, the Steelers defense was very very bad. I think Tomlin deserves some blame, but you can't put that all on one guy. Also, every time someone brings up something about a coach or quarterback being terrible, I ask one question... Who would you realistically replace him with that is better? I'm going to flip this argument. This is a team that is about to lose a HOF QB in the next few years. What do people think Tomlin does post-Ben? Do you think he builds a contender with his own, new QB? Do you think he keeps them consistently competitive ever year, or takes his team to, let's say, 5 AFCCG like Cowher did with guys like Kordell? I mean, he can't do it with Roethlisberger. Cowher rebuilt his defense three times. I'm still waiting for Tomlin, after half a decade, to manage to do it once. I am at the point where I'm convinced Tomlin won't win another ring here. Even if they had gotten by Jacksonville today, there's no way he'd have this team ready for what comes next. So maybe you don't hire a guy as good as Tomlin. Maybe the guy you hire flames out post-Ben, as well. But we see it every year in this league - you can fire a coach and bring in a new guy, and it can provide a spark. This isn't the Chargers firing Schottenheimer and going with a GM who had a few lucky drafts. They have the FO people who can keep finding talent. Even if Colbert hits a bad dry spell, though, it's worth a risk. We saw Kubiak win a ring a few years ago with the ghost of Peyton Manning and a great defense thrown together with little concern for the future. Denver was aggressive and it got them a ring. Now Denver kind of sucks, but what Broncos fan would say it was totally not worth it? They should have stayed the course with John Fox, built for the future and just tried to compete every year? No one. We saw Jacksonville this year change coaches and it made a world of difference. He hired a castoff from Buffalo. Final point - Mike Tomlin was an unknown when he was hired. Bill Cowher was unknown when he was hired. Saying who else are we going to replace this guy with when talking about head coaches is saying as an organization that you don't trust your process. You don't trust yourselves to make a good decision, so we'll just stick with what we got. This is not the same as the QB position. The talent pool you draw from and the skills needed for what the Steelers want to do aren't that rare. For now, I'll take firing Todd Haley. But I'm not convinced it would matter. You could hire a young Bill Walsh and I think Tomlin will neuter this offense and continue to deliver a lackluster product on defense to balance things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: I'm going to flip this argument. This is a team that is about to lose a HOF QB in the next few years. What do people think Tomlin does post-Ben? Do you think he builds a contender with his own, new QB? Do you think he keeps them consistently competitive ever year, or takes his team to, let's say, 5 AFCCG like Cowher did with guys like Kordell? I mean, he can't do it with Roethlisberger. Cowher rebuilt his defense three times. I'm still waiting for Tomlin, after half a decade, to manage to do it once. I am at the point where I'm convinced Tomlin won't win another ring here. Even if they had gotten by Jacksonville today, there's no way he'd have this team ready for what comes next. So maybe you don't hire a guy as good as Tomlin. Maybe the guy you hire flames out post-Ben, as well. But we see it every year in this league - you can fire a coach and bring in a new guy, and it can provide a spark. This isn't the Chargers firing Schottenheimer and going with a GM who had a few lucky drafts. They have the FO people who can keep finding talent. Even if Colbert hits a bad dry spell, though, it's worth a risk. We saw Kubiak win a ring a few years ago with the ghost of Peyton Manning and a great defense thrown together with little concern for the future. Denver was aggressive and it got them a ring. Now Denver kind of sucks, but what Broncos fan would say it was totally not worth it? They should have stayed the course with John Fox, built for the future and just tried to compete every year? No one. We saw Jacksonville this year change coaches and it made a world of difference. He hired a castoff from Buffalo. Final point - Mike Tomlin was an unknown when he was hired. Bill Cowher was unknown when he was hired. Saying who else are we going to replace this guy with when talking about head coaches is saying as an organization that you don't trust your process. You don't trust yourselves to make a good decision, so we'll just stick with what we got. This is not the same as the QB position. The talent pool you draw from and the skills needed for what the Steelers want to do aren't that rare. For now, I'll take firing Todd Haley. But I'm not convinced it would matter. You could hire a young Bill Walsh and I think Tomlin will neuter this offense and continue to deliver a lackluster product on defense to balance things out. First point. Considering Ben is a sure fire Hall of Famer, I'm not sure what they would do when he decides to retire. Losing an amazing QB like Ben is really hard to recover from. To be fair to Tomlin, he hasn't really had to deal with that situation yet, so lets wait and see. Secondly, you can't fire Tomlin with the record he has and the consistency of the Steelers being really good basically every year and replace him with a downgrade at coach. If you're going to fire Tomlin then you better be bringing in a guy who is a great head coach because if you downgrade at coach after a 13-3 regular season and making it to the AFC Divisional game that would be really bad. You bring up the point about Kubiak, but Tomlin has been to two Superbowls as a head coach - winning one of them. His career winning percentage in the regular season is .659. I believe that cracks out to an average of 11 wins per season over 11 years. As far as your final point, the Steelers have had a really good offense, so what do you mean by 'neuter this offense'. Their offense today, against hands down the best defensive unit in the league, played exceptionally well today. I don't watch the Steelers as much as you, so clarify your point. The Steelers offense has actually been great for several years now, it's just they've dealt with unfortunate situation where Bell has missed time as has Bryant and other key injuries along the way to Ben, Brown, etc. It took Bill Cowher a very long time to win a Superbowl. Before his SB win, there's no way I would have called for him to be fired. They only replaced him because he retired, otherwise he would still be the Steelers coach today I would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 If you think Pittsburgh are good, it’s not because of Tomlin If you don’t think Pittsburgh are good, it’s not because of Tomlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, showtime said: Secondly, you can't fire Tomlin with the record he has and the consistency of the Steelers being really good basically every year and replace him with a downgrade at coach. If you're going to fire Tomlin then you better be bringing in a guy who is a great head coach because if you downgrade at coach after a 13-3 regular season and making it to the AFC Divisional game that would be really bad. Is Kubiak a good coach? Better than Tomlin? No? Is he even better than John Fox? Somehow, though, he got that team over the hump. Was Jon Gruden really a better coach than Tony Dungy? You didn't seem to get the point of the comment. The coach can in fact be someone who won't have the career success Tomlin has had. It doesn't matter. You need someone who can provide the right spark right now. And that doesn't have to be some great coach, necessarily. But I'll take the next Belichick if he's out there, too. 5 minutes ago, showtime said: As far as your final point, the Steelers have had a really good offense, so what do you mean by 'neuter this offense'. Their offense today, against hands down the best defensive unit in the league, played exceptionally well today. I don't watch the Steelers as much as you, so clarify your point. The Steelers offense has actually been great for several years now, it's just they've dealt with unfortunate situation where Bell has missed time as has Bryant and other key injuries along the way to Ben, Brown, etc. This is is an offense that should be breaking records. Tomlin focuses on time of possession. They sputtered about for nearly half the season. 6 minutes ago, showtime said: It took Bill Cowher a very long time to win a Superbowl. Before his SB win, there's no way I would have called for him to be fired. They only replaced him because he retired, otherwise he would still be the Steelers coach today I would imagine. 1. Plenty of Steelers fans did want Cowher fired. You don't lose 4 AFCCG games at home (favored in all) and a Super Bowl without fans calling for your head. 2. Rooney's did come close to parting with Cowher at a point. 3. Cowher didn't have a HOF QB. He didn't have a franchise guy until 2004. And he won it by year 2. Cowher's teams were simply better than Tomlin's overall consistently. They didn't have the flash of Brown and Bell, but the talent level was consistently higher. It took the current braintrust half a decade to rebuild the OL, and part of that was just the result of Tomlin hiring lousy OL coaches who couldn't coach the talent they had up. They haven't even managed to do the same with the defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Vladimir L said: He is ridding off having one of the best qbs and good wr core. Yaeh he is totilly ridding off having good a QB and good wide recever kore. Pitsburg isn't gud bkuz of Tomlin. My head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Fire Mike Tomlin and start over with a new coach! -AFC North Fans/coaches/players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Ooo as I wrote this the Saints just lost. Fire Sean Payton!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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