NFL News & Notes

[Kampfgeist]

21 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

There are a couple counter argument points to this argument. 

1. How much did Bakhtiari and Bulaga contribute to Jones?  Just one example alone was posted here a while back with Bulaga providing an excellent block that sprung Jones for a long 20+ yard TD against the Cowboys.  This is the biggest argument of them all because it has been proven throughout the NFL.  Running backs can't run unless they've got players blocking for them.  You can directly attribute a running back's success to two things: First, their health.  Second, the state of their offensive lines.  All those monster seasons we've seen out of running backs didn't just happen to have great offensive lines. 

2. I posted a while ago a direct correlation between running backs with and without LaFleur.  Henry had a career boost with LaFleur.  Gurley had his best years as a pro with LaFleur on staff.  Coleman and Freeman both got big contracts and have shown nothing out of them thanks to the years LaFleur was on the staff. 

3. Jamaal Williams was no slouch at RB last year either.  He averaged only .3 less yards per carry and had 5 receiving touchdowns. 

None of this is to say that Jones is bad, but maybe to suggest that he's not as valuable relative to his potential replacement as someone like Bakhtiari. 

10 running backs in the NFL had more yards rushing than Jones.
7 other running backs had double digit rushing touchdowns.
14 other running backs had more yards per carry than Jones (with a minimum of 100 attempts)
13 other running backs had more receptions than Jones.
44 other running backs had a higher catch percentage than Jones with a minimum of 20 targets (although I think this one is on Rodgers)
11 running backs had more receiving touchdowns.

Now if you take that all into account and you start comparing the value of Jones to the value of Clark and Bakhtiari, let's say Aaron Jones is right there at 10th best running back in the league. 

Can you list 9 players better than Bakhtiari at LT?
Can you list 9 players better than Clark at IDL? 

Let's also consider that 10/10 (that's all 10) of the top running backs in yards this past year were under 26 years old.
9/10 in 2018 were under 26 years old (with the sole outlier being a **** old Adrian Peterson.
7/10 in 2017 (Spiller 26, McCoy 29, Ingram 28)
7/10 in 2016 (Murray/Mccoy 28, Blount 30)

So in the past 4 years, 33/40 (83%) of the league's leading rushers were under 26 years old.

And Jones turns 26. 

I keep going back and forth on this myself, but I'd rather trade Jones than re-sign Jones. 

Posted in another thread but thought I'd re-post thoughts here as well--

I think the age cutoff provided in your posts needs to be reconsidered or at least revised regarding Aaron Jones.   I think touches/snaps has significantly more bearing than an age cutoff/concern.

For instance -  of the top 10 backs in rushing last year - Jones has the fewest combined rushing/receiving attempts through his 1st 3 seasons in the league - 534.   Extend the list even further to the Top 24 the only non-rookie backs with fewer than Jones's combined touches over his 1st 3 seasons were :

Carlos Hyde (465) who just gained 1100yds at age 29 

Phillip Lindsay (486) over his 1st 2 seasons

Sonny Michel (475) over his 1st 2 seasons

Kenyan Drake (380) just over 1st 3 seasons 

Another consideration to Jones's tread expectancy is the continuing decrease of practice contact and training camp wear/tear.    There are a lot fewer collisions these backs are taking that are non-game related and that trend is only growing in the new CBA as padded and full contact practices are severely limited.    Additionally to the lighter practice schedule, the growing trend has been the additional "veteran's days off" to save legs and Jones will certainly be part of that group.    The flip is the extra 17th game but I think that's a better argument for drafting another high quality back vs not paying the one you have.

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

He would also make them better on the field versus having Tajae Sharpe out there. I'm fine not buying O'dell but I don't want him going to the NFC. 

I will never understand why people are afraid of Beckham other than a single matchup in a 22 versus 22 game.

6/10
6/10
11/5 (Lost Wild Card 13-38 versus packers)
3/13
5/11
6/10

An average record of 6 wins.  That's what OBJ can do.

You can track this across the board with diva receivers.

Randy Moss? 

15-1
10-6
11-5
5-11
6-10
9-7
8-8
4-12
2-14

Brandon Marshall becomes relevant in 2007:

7-9
8-8
8-8
7-9
6-10
10-6
8-8
5-11
10-6
5-11
3-13

Brandon Marshall - 11 seasons of being a relavant receiver with 970 career receptions, 12,000 yards, 83 touchdowns, 0 playoff games. 

Chad Ochocinco, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Brandon Marshall, Antonio Brown, Desean Jackson, Randy Moss, Brandon Marshall...

A diva receiver is a good way for your team to underachieve. 

 

 

[Kampfgeist]

I don't really agree with that argument Outpost-

 

This from JJ Watt's wiki page:

 

Overall, in the 2013 season, JJ Watt recorded 65 solo tackles, 15 assisted tackles, seven passes defended, 10.5 sacks, four forced fumbles, and two fumble recoveries. The Texans, however, had a losing season and finished with a 2–14 record. Watt was named to the 2014 NFL Pro Bowl and was a Pro Bowl Captain.

 

Is a top 5 defender in the NFL a good way for a team to underachieve?

 

 

 

How about Joe Thomas?   He went to 10 straight Pro Bowls and was unanimously named to the all-decade team.   How did the Browns do during his career?

Is a HOF LT a good way  for a team to underachieve?

 

That game can be played across any position group you'd like.

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Kampfgeist

[Leader]

Andy Herman -  OBJ is the most overrated player in the NFL and I’m fine if the Vikings trade for him.

/////

Be interesting to see....if this trade comes off.....if MIN dips into this WR class and drafts another....who and when.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Leader

[MacReady]

24 minutes ago, Kampfgeist said:

That game can be played across any position group you'd like.

 

No it can't because you don't even know what game you're playing. 

Those two players are Hall of Fame players who elevated their team beyond what they should have been while never making a single headline of speaking out against their coaches or teammates or complaining about anything. 

Watt has had 2 losing seasons his entire career.  The 2013 and the 2016 season.  You can scratch the 2016 season because Watt missed the year.  2012?  You can look at their roster for answers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Houston_Texans_season#Final_roster

And the Browns won 0 games the year Thomas had a season ending injury.  They also coincidentally had their first double digit winning season the year Thomas was drafted.  Just their fifth double digit winning season in the past 40 years is all.  Nothing to see there.

And again, you're neglecting the point that we are talking about divas.  Not great players, but divas. 

I don't know what's so difficult to comprehend about it. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

I will never understand why people are afraid of Beckham other than a single matchup in a 22 versus 22 game.

6/10
6/10
11/5 (Lost Wild Card 13-38 versus packers)
3/13
5/11
6/10

An average record of 6 wins.  That's what OBJ can do.

You can track this across the board with diva receivers.

Randy Moss? 

15-1
10-6
11-5
5-11
6-10
9-7
8-8
4-12
2-14

Brandon Marshall becomes relevant in 2007:

7-9
8-8
8-8
7-9
6-10
10-6
8-8
5-11
10-6
5-11
3-13

Brandon Marshall - 11 seasons of being a relavant receiver with 970 career receptions, 12,000 yards, 83 touchdowns, 0 playoff games. 

Chad Ochocinco, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Brandon Marshall, Antonio Brown, Desean Jackson, Randy Moss, Brandon Marshall...

A diva receiver is a good way for your team to underachieve. 

 

 

You're smarter than to judge an individual by team success. 

Also, TO, Randy Moss, Antonio Brown and a couple of others have definitely had team success. 

You can do the same with just about every position other than QB. Joe Thomas spent his entire career with the Browns. Trent Williams has been with the Redskins forever. 

It's a team sport.

[Leader]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You're smarter than to judge an individual by team success. Also, TO, Randy Moss, Antonio Brown and a couple of others have definitely had team success. You can do the same with just about every position other than QB. Joe Thomas spent his entire career with the Browns. Trent Williams has been with the Redskins forever. It's a team sport.

Correct.
You can throw out the NYG experiment. Eli was on the downswing and that OL fell to pieces.
CLE? Mixed bag..... but the team woefully underperformed IMO. 

OBJ's a talented guy. Worth his contract? Dont know / dont care. He can make plays on the field.
As I mentioned earlier - be interesting to see if MIN "loads up" at WR by nabbing OBJ but then adding some top talent from this years draft class.

I know already what the rejoiner would be: "Yeah - but it's Kirk still throwing the ball" - well - that would make for quite a package of offensive skill position players we'd have to defend twice a year.....at least.

We might want to move CB up our draft day "To Do" list.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Leader

[MacReady]

Just now, AlexGreen#20 said:

You're smarter than to judge an individual by team success. 

Also, TO, Randy Moss, Antonio Brown and a couple of others have definitely had team success. 

You can do the same with just about every position other than QB. Joe Thomas spent his entire career with the Browns. Trent Williams has been with the Redskins forever. 

It's a team sport.

Yeah, it's a team sport.  When you get a player who puts himself above the team, the team suffers. 

We're talking about 2020 here and a position that is less important now than at any time before in the history of the game due to how easy it is for the position to succeed. 

OBJ, Antonio Brown are both more harm than they are good to a team's success. 

Unless you think camaraderie and team mental health count nothing towards success. 

[AlexGreen#20]

3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Yeah, it's a team sport.  When you get a player who puts himself above the team, the team suffers. 

We're talking about 2020 here and a position that is less important now than at any time before in the history of the game due to how easy it is for the position to succeed. 

OBJ, Antonio Brown are both more harm than they are good to a team's success. 

Unless you think camaraderie and team mental health count nothing towards success. 

What is OBJ's great sin? That New York needed a scapegoat for Eli Manning being trash in his twilight years?

OBJ and Antonio Brown are not remotely similar. Lumping them together is absurd.

[vegas492]

Plaxico Burress and Santonio Holmes....were they "divas"?  I don't know where I"d put them.  Maybe not a "diva" like we see out of Antonio Brown now.  But also they weren't boy scouts.  Both won Super Bowls.

Deion Sanders was an enormous diva.  Won multiple Super Bowls.  And a World Series.

Michael Irvin?

Maybe that is going back too far.  

[MacReady]

10 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What is OBJ's great sin? That New York needed a scapegoat for Eli Manning being trash in his twilight years?

OBJ and Antonio Brown are not remotely similar. Lumping them together is absurd.

Do you not remember any of OBJ’s meltdowns?  Dude literally assaulted a field goal net.  Half the people here were ready to cut Randall for throwing his hands up and voicing displeasure with a defensive coordinator whom everyone wanted fired, but you want OBJ on this team?

Plus there’s the fact that he had a bad year with Cleveland.  And don’t give me that scapegoat baloney.  If OBJ plays for any other team this year it’s all the evidence I need to support my claim.  It would mean he’s either not as good as everyone thinks or he’s not worth his personality.

Why do people think the best receiver of his time played for 6 teams (Moss, including back to Vikings)?  Owens - 5 teams.  Brown - 3 teams in 2 years.  Why am I the only one who sees these elite receivers playing for so many different teams as a sign that they’re not worth their BS?

Can anybody think of any example of a different position moving around as frequently as receivers do?

I mean I got RIDICULED and raked though the coals at this point last year saying I wouldn’t trade a 5th round pick for Antonio Brown and I got the SAME treatment for saying I wouldn’t send a 7th for Martavis Bryant.  How does that argument look now?

The Steelers just had a similar season without Brown and without Roethlisberger as they did with them.  At what point are people going to realize that we’re talking about a damn RECEIVER?  This isn’t a QB, this isn’t an EDGE, it’s a receiver.  In 2020.  Does anybody honestly believe that half the receivers going to the pro bowl the past ten years would even be a blip on anybody’s radar 30 years ago?  It has literally never been easier to be a receiver in the history of the NFL than it is right now.  

[vegas492]

7 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Do you not remember any of OBJ’s meltdowns? (Yes) Dude literally assaulted a field goal net.  (Yes) Half the people here were ready to cut Randall for throwing his hands up and voicing displeasure with a defensive coordinator whom everyone wanted fired, but you want OBJ on this team?  (Randall doesn't have near the talent at corner as OBJ does at WR.  With talent comes a longer leash.)  (Not sure about wanting OBJ on the team.)  (Many guys assault their helmets on the sidelines, OBJ just happened to take issue with the field goal net.)

Plus there’s the fact that he had a bad year with Cleveland.  (74 catches 1,035 yards.  4 TD.  Eerily similar to his prior year with G-Men.  And...considering a second year, QB it's not a bad year, it just wasn't an outstanding year.  For comparison...Adams had 83 for 997 and 5.  'Vante had 4 fewer games played, though) And don’t give me that scapegoat baloney.  If OBJ plays for any other team this year it’s all the evidence I need to support my claim. (Agree) It would mean he’s either not as good as everyone thinks or he’s not worth his personality. (Not worth his personality is my guess.)

Why do people think the best receiver of his time played for 6 teams (Moss, including back to Vikings)? (Thinking that Randy had issues when younger, but he matured nicely.) Owens - 5 teams.  (Diva no doubt.  Also...teams brought him in to put them over the edge.  Played on a partially broken leg for the Eagles and was productive.  He was the guy that got them over the hump.) Brown - 3 teams in 2 years. (He's in a diva league all by himself.) Why am I the only one who sees these elite receivers playing for so many different teams as a sign that they’re not worth their BS?  (Some guys have value via trade, Randy wasn't doing anything with the Raiders and had to go.  Owens was kind of like a merc.)  (Immediately thought about Hopkins getting traded...not a diva, at least I don't think so.  But clearly he and the coach didn't see things the same way.  Point being, WR's are probably seen as easier to replace.)

Can anybody think of any example of a different position moving around as frequently as receivers do? (Bettis, Faulk, McCoy, Murray were traded as top tier RBs.  But they aren't moved as often as WRs.  See Brandin Cooks as an example of a WR with value and has been traded his entire career.)

I mean I got RIDICULED and raked though the coals at this point last year saying I wouldn’t trade a 5th round pick for Antonio Brown and I got the SAME treatment for saying I wouldn’t send a 7th for Martavis Bryant.  How does that argument look now?  (terrible, though both are examples of low risk/high reward with those draft picks, contracts not withstanding)

The Steelers just had a similar season without Brown and without Roethlisberger as they did with them.  At what point are people going to realize that we’re talking about a damn RECEIVER?  (Greg Jennings pops into my head.  And we tried hard to re-sign him.) This isn’t a QB, this isn’t an EDGE, it’s a receiver.  In 2020.  Does anybody honestly believe that half the receivers going to the pro bowl the past ten years would even be a blip on anybody’s radar 30 years ago? (Eh...yes, half would have been blips.) ( 2019 Pro Bowl WR's....Hopkins-yes he would have been good then.  Keenan Allen---nope, eh maybe...very great route runner.  Landry--nope.  Hill--yes.  Sutton--maybe.  Chark---maybe, probably not.  Julio Jones---yes to being a good one.  Michael Thomas---yes to being a good one.  Evans--yes to being a good one.  Godwin--don't know his game.  Cooper---meh, probably not.  Golladay---50/50.  Adams--would have been a stud back then too.) It has literally never been easier to be a receiver in the history of the NFL than it is right now.  (True...rules...3-4 WR sets more common...etc.)

Challenge Accepted.

[MacReady]

Can anybody think of a position that changes teams as frequently as the receiver position relative to their talent level?  ANY position?  Honest question.  Does that tell you nothing?

Everyone was shocked by the Hopkins trade and they’re all calling BOB an idiot but the man is in the NFL when you’re not. He didn’t see whatever issue he had with Hopkins as worth that talent.  Cooks has now been traded three times in four years. 

 

[MacReady]

1 minute ago, vegas492 said:

Challenge Accepted.

I don’t like the way you responded because I’m not going through the trouble to respond to my own post and cut/paste so I’ll just give you another challenge:

Name any other position that moves from team to team as frequently as the WR position.

 

[Dubz41]

15 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I don’t like the way you responded because I’m not going through the trouble to respond to my own post and cut/paste so I’ll just give you another challenge:

Name any other position that moves from team to team as frequently as the WR position.

 

Back up DL run stuffer?