Cheese Curds: Green Bay Packers Updates

[Mdpackfan22]

1 hour ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

Your receivers absolutely have made him look better, but you're entitled to your opinion. As far as having the mvp conversation, I needed a good laugh today!

He just put up a 125 passer rating with 4 total TDs on you guys missing Watson, Wicks, Musgrave and Reed only playing a half. 

 

Bo Melton, Tucker Kraft and Romeo Doubs sure are striking fear in DCs across the league! 

[JDBrocks]

1 hour ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

He just put up a 125 passer rating with 4 total TDs on you guys missing Watson, Wicks, Musgrave and Reed only playing a half. 

 

Bo Melton, Tucker Kraft and Romeo Doubs sure are striking fear in DCs across the league! 

cool. against a half healthy defense battling poor QB play and turnovers. Offense looked great in week 8, tho! 

[JDBrocks]

9 hours ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

Holy copium

If Love had a slightly better defense, he would be in the MVP convo

Best post in this thread, bar none.

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

Both Minshew and Fitzpatrick had games where they've looked brilliant, games where they've been solid, and games where they've looked bad, which is where Love is at, that's all I was saying... I wasn't making a direct comparison of the players, just the types of games they have produced. I don't recall saying Love was "bad", I believe I referred to him as mid-tier, maybe I'm mistaken.

That would apply to about 99% of the QBs in NFL history.  Even guys like Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers have those WTF throws.

4 hours ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

I've watched most of your games, and every game I've watched there have been some great throws, some good throws, some poor throws, and some terrible throws. Even in this last game against the Vikings, he made some really poor throws that either left a ton of yards on the field or were flat out misses. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but it seemed as though Rodgers never missed those opportunities, but Love misses them often. It's just amusing how you (not necessarily you specifically) can have 2 qbs that played very similar yet have opposite opinions of them. 

I'd really be interested in those terrible throws outside of the Pittsburgh game since their matchup against Denver.  And Rodgers missed a TON of opportunities.  Probably more missed throws by Rodgers than Love in the 2nd half of the season if we're being honest.  I can't remember which season it was, but there was a season why Rodgers set the record for most throwaways in a season in like 9 or 10 games.

At the end of the day, the question is going to be does Jordan Love make another jump?  If he does, he can move into that elite territory.  Or does he stay similar to what he has been this year?  If it's the latter, calling him a "mid-tier" QB probably isn't inaccurate and honestly wouldn't be all that different than Kirk Cousins.  As for the Rodgers vs. Love, one played well within the offense and one didn't.  One refused to throw to an open receivers, and the other one doesn't.  One wanted GM powers with personnel decision, and the other doesn't (at least not yet).  Jordan Love has been a breath of fresh air compared to Aaron Rodgers.  Don't get me wrong, Aaron Rodgers is one of the best to ever play the position.  But he's a headache and a half.

4 hours ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

My "argument" was that I don't know who I'd choose between Love and Fields, not whether either of them would be the future of my team. I don't know that I'd be happy with either of them right now, as neither has consistently shown to be a franchise qb. Love has shown more as a passer, while Fields has shown to be more a dynamic runner. I prefer my qbs to be better at throwing, so I'd honestly lean Love if I had to chose, but I'm not sold on either (nor do I think either should be thrown on the scrap heap yet). It's just silly the amount of praise Love is getting for what really is just a mid-tier performance. 

I can't see how anyone in their right mind would take Fields over Love.  I don't care how big of a running threat that Justin Fields is, he's a miserable passer.  I believe other than TD%, he's a bottom third QB.  He's 28th in CMP%, 25th in INT%, and 25th in ANY/A.  For comparison, Love is 21st in CMP%, 16th in INT%, and 11th in ANY/A.  There's a reason why one of them is potentially being replaced, and one isn't.  And it has nothing to do with Caleb Williams.

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, Ozzy said:

The guy has had 803 yards, 770 yards and 613 yards the last three years and is a physical force.  Sure he is most likely replaced by Taylor or Wilson who are both big back as well.  But Dillon can play and impacts the game physically, not mnay if any backs in the NFL compare to him physically with that leg power, I love power backs and he is one.  

Bum?  

Bum?  No.  Someone they're going to pay a bunch of money to?  Definitely not.  Odds are he's somewhere what Jamaal Williams got from Detroit when he left Green Bay.  Maybe an extra year.

[swede700]

11 hours ago, Ozzy said:

The guy has had 803 yards, 770 yards and 613 yards the last three years and is a physical force.  Sure he is most likely replaced by Taylor or Wilson who are both big back as well.  But Dillon can play and impacts the game physically, not mnay if any backs in the NFL compare to him physically with that leg power, I love power backs and he is one.  

Bum?  

 

Leroy Hoard was very good on the Vikings back in the day and was a key role to a great offense as a power back and change of pace back and he never rushed for over 600 yards as a Viking.  

 

AJ Dillon does not put up huge stats but he also does not get the ball a ton compared to a full time starter.  With a team that actually uses a FB or has more of a HB, Dillon could be more successful.  Packers use a lot of WR bunches, no FB, not even duel TEs that often either....  Dillon would be better with some more traditional run schemes possibly.  But sure any RB is not worth a thing because there are 20-30 guys in college and one can get a quality back in the late rounds or as a UDFA....

But fact is if one is looking for a physical profile like AJ Dillon, you will not find it honestly, not many guys built like that.    

 

He's a bum.  I'm sure he's fine if you want just the bulldozer (a team could use him on the tush push), but you can't count on him if he's needed.  I've heard many a Packers fan say that.  When Jones was out, he was a non-factor.

[sparkyjoe1]

9 hours ago, CWood21 said:

That would apply to about 99% of the QBs in NFL history.  Even guys like Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers have those WTF throws. True, but it is more frequent with Love. It happens multiple times a game with Love. That's the consistency issue I have with him, not just game to game, but play to play.

I'd really be interested in those terrible throws outside of the Pittsburgh game since their matchup against Denver. There were several of those throws in the Vikings game alone. And Rodgers missed a TON of opportunities.  Probably more missed throws by Rodgers than Love in the 2nd half of the season if we're being honest.  I can't remember which season it was, but there was a season why Rodgers set the record for most throwaways in a season in like 9 or 10 games. I agree that he threw the ball away more than he should have and ignored the middle of the field. I guess you could consider an unneccessary throw-away or not throwing it to an open receiver a "missed" throw, but I'm more referring to ball placement or poor throws.

At the end of the day, the question is going to be does Jordan Love make another jump?  If he does, he can move into that elite territory. I agree, but I think it's a much larger jump than you do for him to be elite. Or does he stay similar to what he has been this year?  If it's the latter, calling him a "mid-tier" QB probably isn't inaccurate and honestly wouldn't be all that different than Kirk Cousins. Strongly disagree. If Love doesn't make a jump, he is far below Kirk. Kirk is elite. As for the Rodgers vs. Love, one played well within the offense and one didn't.  One refused to throw to an open receivers, and the other one doesn't.  One wanted GM powers with personnel decision, and the other doesn't (at least not yet).  Jordan Love has been a breath of fresh air compared to Aaron Rodgers.  Don't get me wrong, Aaron Rodgers is one of the best to ever play the position.  But he's a headache and a half. Agreed.

I can't see how anyone in their right mind would take Fields over Love. Not that I necessarily agree, but someone could look at Fields and think that if he was put in a good situation, he could be dynamic. This happens all the time in the NFL. Love has been in a good situation, and has yet to be consistently dynamic.  I don't care how big of a running threat that Justin Fields is, he's a miserable passer.  I believe other than TD%, he's a bottom third QB.  He's 28th in CMP%, 25th in INT%, and 25th in ANY/A.  For comparison, Love is 21st in CMP%, 16th in INT%, and 11th in ANY/A. How are those not mid-tier stats for Love?   There's a reason why one of them is potentially being replaced, and one isn't.  And it has nothing to do with Caleb Williams.

 

[Mdpackfan22]

12 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

cool. against a half healthy defense battling poor QB play and turnovers. Offense looked great in week 8, tho! 

Okay now do the injuries to the Packers offense. And yeah crazy, almost like the youngest offense in the league improved as the year went on! 

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

True, but it is more frequent with Love. It happens multiple times a game with Love. That's the consistency issue I have with him, not just game to game, but play to play.

Except it isn't.  Or at least not where you're going to scratch your head with what was he thinking.  Love's been amazing since that Denver game with the exception of the Pittsburgh game.  I'd love to see some clips of those "bad" throws Love made.

1 hour ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

I agree that he threw the ball away more than he should have and ignored the middle of the field. I guess you could consider an unneccessary throw-away or not throwing it to an open receiver a "missed" throw, but I'm more referring to ball placement or poor throws.

If your WR is wide open, and your QB refuses to throw the ball to that WR than that's a bad play.  Rodgers late in his career became way too feast-or-famine when it came to passing the ball.  And he wasn't going to make throws that had any chance of the defender making a play on the ball.  With the exception of Davante Adams, Rodgers' supporting cast was similar to the one he had the previous year.  One season he was an MVP, and the other Packers' fans were ready to run him out of town.  Rodgers didn't like playing within LaFleur's offense despite PROVING that he was capable of doing that and winning back-to-back MVPs while doing so.

1 hour ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

Strongly disagree. If Love doesn't make a jump, he is far below Kirk. Kirk is elite.

Kirk Cousins is absolutely anything but elite.  When you talk about elite, you're talking about the best of the best.  Think Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.  That's not Kirk Cousins.  He's in that really good category.  Good, just not elite.

1 hour ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

Not that I necessarily agree, but someone could look at Fields and think that if he was put in a good situation, he could be dynamic. This happens all the time in the NFL. Love has been in a good situation, and has yet to be consistently dynamic.

If you have to put caveats with your argument, it doesn't stand on its own and it's a bad argument.  Could Fields be better with a better coaching staff and supporting cast?  Sure.  Could Jordan Love be better with more established WRs?  Sure.  The problem is your trying to make a jump to conclusion with one, and not using it on the other.

[Mdpackfan22]

13 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

Best post in this thread, bar none.

Packers with an average defense would have 4 more wins(Falcons, Steelers, Giants, Bucs) and would put them at 12 wins tied for 1st with Niners.

MVP is a narrative driven award. Love leading the Packers to the #1 seed in the NFC and 3rd in the league in TDs with the youngest supporting cast in the league facing a litany of injuries would be in the discussion. 

[swede700]

17 minutes ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

Packers with an average defense would have 4 more wins(Falcons, Steelers, Giants, Bucs) and would put them at 12 wins tied for 1st with Niners.

MVP is a narrative driven award. Love leading the Packers to the #1 seed in the NFC and 3rd in the league in TDs with the youngest supporting cast in the league facing a litany of injuries would be in the discussion. 

Nothing really against Love, but the "youngest supporting cast" is really a tired narrative that far too many media types trump up as some huge catalyst. 

There's a 1-yr difference between the Packers and the team in 20th place (Arizona), and 6 months between them and the Chiefs (who are 7th).  I mean Christian Watson is a month older than Justin Jefferson.  It's simply an excuse to justify some preconceived narrative or create a talking point when you really have nothing.  I don't really care who the team is when they do stuff like that, it could be the Jaguars for all I care.  It's disingenuous.

Edited January 4 by swede700

[Mdpackfan22]

3 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Nothing really against Love, but the "youngest supporting cast" is really a tired narrative that far too many media types trump up as some huge catalyst. 

There's a 1-yr difference between the Packers and the team in 20th place (Arizona), and 6 months between them and the Chiefs (who are 7th).  I mean Christian Watson is a month older than Justin Jefferson.  It's simply an excuse to justify some preconceived narrative or create a talking point when you really have nothing.  I don't really care who the team is when they do stuff like that, it could be the Jaguars for all I care.  It's disingenuous.

A 1 year difference is a significant difference. Also I'm pretty sure the numbers you're using accounts for entire team, not offense. Every WR and TE that Love is throwing to is either a rookie or 2nd year player. The young receiving room has been decimated with injuries, with our #1 WR and #1 TE missing significant time. Majority of the other guys have been banged up missing time with multiple injuries. Kraft and Doubs are the only ones in the receiving corps that have played every game. 

 

Starting the season, we had 3 players on offense that weren't on a rookie contract.

Bakh: Has missed 15 games

Aaron Jones: Has missed 6 games

Jenkins: Has missed 2 games

 

So for a good portion of the year, Love has been playing with 1 player on offense that isn't on a rookie contract. His performance so far carrying an extremely inexperienced and injured offense has been nothing short of phenomenal. 

 

 

[sparkyjoe1]

27 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Except it isn't.  Or at least not where you're going to scratch your head with what was he thinking.  Love's been amazing since that Denver game with the exception of the Pittsburgh game.  I'd love to see some clips of those "bad" throws Love made. I am quite certain you watched the game against the Vikings. I don't even know how to quote the way you do with your responses, small chance I could post individual clips. Rewatch the game and honestly assess his throws. I said there were multiple throws that were "wtf" type throws. I think you and I are talking about different things. I'm referring to ball placement and generally poor throws. I believe you are referring to more of a mental type of issue with not knowing what he's seeing. I'm not referring to that, but the actual throw itself. I rarely see those throws from the top qbs, but much more frequently from Love.

If your WR is wide open, and your QB refuses to throw the ball to that WR than that's a bad play.  Rodgers late in his career became way too feast-or-famine when it came to passing the ball.  And he wasn't going to make throws that had any chance of the defender making a play on the ball.  With the exception of Davante Adams, Rodgers' supporting cast was similar to the one he had the previous year.  One season he was an MVP, and the other Packers' fans were ready to run him out of town.  Rodgers didn't like playing within LaFleur's offense despite PROVING that he was capable of doing that and winning back-to-back MVPs while doing so. Not disagreeing that it is a bad play. I've been referring to bad placement or poorly thrown balls. Not sure if Rodgers had a poorly thrown ball or bad placement in years (hyperbole). He also had a broken thumb, which was talked about ad nauseam last year but left out of the discussion this year.

Kirk Cousins is absolutely anything but elite.  When you talk about elite, you're talking about the best of the best.  Think Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.  That's not Kirk Cousins.  He's in that really good category.  Good, just not elite. I guess I'd be curious to see your criteria for elite vs really good. He's obviously not as physically gifted as Mahomes, Allen, etc... but as a passer, he was definitely playing at an elite level. When he got injured, he was a top qb and there would be few qbs that I would take before him. If you enter age and future contributions into the equation, that obviously would changes things...

If you have to put caveats with your argument, it doesn't stand on its own and it's a bad argument.  Could Fields be better with a better coaching staff and supporting cast?  Sure.  Could Jordan Love be better with more established WRs?  Sure.  The problem is your trying to make a jump to conclusion with one, and not using it on the other. I'm not making a conclusion with either one. I even said that I wouldn't throw either one on the scrap heap. It seems as though you think I said Love was bad, when i actually said he was mid-tier. I didn't say he couldn't get better, just that he has a lot of work to do. I never said that Fields was better either. Like Love, he has a lot of work to do. I don't think I'd give up on either right now, though I'd have to think about the options for the Bears because of where they'll be drafting. 

 

[swede700]

1 hour ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

A 1 year difference is a significant difference.

No, it's not.  I can agree that the 2+ yrs average age is significant, but I don't believe 1 is.  I can also buy the "inexperience" of the group, but that's not how it's often been characterized...it's been characterized as their ages being significantly different.  It's really not. 

We don't talk about the ages of the Bengals' WRs (the 3rd youngest team overall)?  Tee Higgins and Ja'Marr Chase are the same age as Doubs and Watson.  I just don't personally care for the characterization that has taken hold.  

 

[Mdpackfan22]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:29 PM, JDBrocks said:

cool. against a half healthy defense battling poor QB play and turnovers. Offense looked great in week 8, tho! 

How about now?