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Kiwibrown

Most complete back in NFL history

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22 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

If you look at Browns stats you’d be surprised. In a 14 games season he had seasons of 46 and 47 receptions for 459 and 517 yards. He had 9.5 YPR though his career. Considering the era that he played...that’s elite receiving production from a RB. He also never missed a game through his 9 year career. That’s insane

Again, Jim Brown was just the best athlete on the field in every game he played in and it was generally not even close. Consider this, in the 1960s, DTs weighed around 250 pounds and LBs weighed 220. Jim Brown was 6'2" and 230-240 lbs and was jacked, he also ran a 9.8 in the 100. He was so much more physically gifted than anyone else that he could more or less do whatever he wanted on the field.

Payton, on the other hand, was 5'10" and 205 lbs. 

So while someone could argue that Brown's greatness shouldn't be diminished because he was in the right place at the right time (Randy Moss), I tend to favor players who accomplish the same or more based on extra effort and passion for the game in which case I hold the like of Payton and Rice in very high regard.

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13 hours ago, jrry32 said:
22 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

@jrry32 As far as Gurley is concerned. He has no reason to be in this discussion, whatsoever. I don't care what the context of the meaning behind it is. None of the greatest "complete" backs ever have ever had as of a poor season like he had in his sophomore year.While he is, without a doubt, a good running back. 

His lackluster season in 2016 cannot be ignored. Nor can it be blamed solely on poor coaching under Fisher either. CJ had one of the best single-seasons by a RB in history in 2009 when he broke Marshall Faulk's record for the most YFS with 2,509 yards and did it while playing the same Head Coach, Jeff Fisher.

Chris Johnson played for Jeff Fisher back when Mike Munchak was his OL Coach. That's a totally different situation. Munchak is the best in the game. The Titans consistently had quality to great OLs during that time. The Rams were no so blessed under Fisher, and it showed. And that's without mentioning the completely incompetent OC, Rob Boras.

So you're just gonna sell CJ's record short and say Munchak and the OL is solely responsible for the offensive play-calling and also for CJ breaking the record.....get the hell out of here lol. That's not even close to being a logically sound reason as to why Gurley was terrible in 2016 under Fisher and CJ still managed. 

I wasn't even a big fan of CJ myself at the time, but that type of statement is a slap in teh face, to be honest. 

Gurley's lackluster 885 yards in rushing was the lowest in history among all RB's with atleast 275 rushing attempts. That alone tells you that it was not only Fisher, or the staff, or the supporting casts, the weather, time-change, an Interstellar war or anything else you can make an excuse for.....except for himself.

There are certainly times when a player leads the league in a certain category for a single season that you can legitimately point to and say...."his staff and/or supporting casts are the only reasons why".... but not when a player sets a historic record in a single season, you can't. If a player breaks a record like did....he earned it. And he earned it while playing under the same HC that your blaming Gurley's faults on.

13 hours ago, jrry32 said:
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While Fisher is a terrible coach and has been for years (even prior to his stint with the Rams AND Titans), there are plenty of RB's(and players in general) over the years who have still produced in minimal conditions with a terrible staff and/or poor play-calling but still maintained. 

-- Bell has had Haley as an OC for his entire career and has still produced. And while he may be a better coach than Fisher - don't tell me that he is a good play-caller either.
-- Johnson still produced in 2016 under Arians and a terrible Goodwin. 
-- CJ produced under Fisher and 3 different OC's(including former Bears OC - Logains) who decided to use CJ to get down field on every drive but then stop giving him the ball in the red-zone and give his touches to LenWhale. 
--Forte still produced while playing in one of the worst and most incompetent offenses in history under 4 different OC's - including bum-*** Ron Turner for the majority - , a below average QB(yes - I'm talking to you Cutler) and no OL or receivers. The only time he fell off even slightly was in his sophomore year after receiving 380 touches in his rookie year, so it was expected. And even then - efficiency wise -  it wasn't as bad as Gurley's.  

^^Just to give an example. Again, plenty of players succeed under poor coaching. Derek Carr had his best season under JDR for christ sakes. 

 

You want to compare the team of Todd Haley and Mike Munchak to Fisher's offensive group? Dude, get out of here.

Don't try an move goal posts now. You have constantly blamed coaching for Gurley's failures and I showed you examples of other RB's who have still produced under both; poor coaching, poor play-calling and poor supporting cast conditions as well. Your just choosing to ignore it because it don't fit your narrative.

13 hours ago, jrry32 said:
Quote

--Forte still produced while playing in one of the worst and most incompetent offenses in history under 4 different OC's - including bum-*** Ron Turner for the majority - , a below average QB(yes - I'm talking to you Cutler) and no OL or receivers. The only time he fell off even slightly was in his sophomore year after receiving 380 touches in his rookie year, so it was expected. And even then - efficiency wise -  it wasn't as bad as Gurley's.  

^^Just to give an example. Again, plenty of players succeed under poor coaching. Derek Carr had his best season under JDR for christ sakes. 

 

Matt Forte averaged 3.6 yards per carry in his second season in the NFL, so he's a quite poor example to use.

......and 4.4 yards per touch and with 1400 YFS. And still produced under the same poor circumstances in his junior year, senior year and virtually the rest of his career.

Whereas, Gurley averaged 3.2 yards per carry, 3.8 yards per touch and only 1212 YFS in his sophomore year.

Matt Forte: 258 carries, 929 yards, 4 TD, 3.6 YPC - 57 receptions, 471 yards, 8.3 YPR, 0 TD - 1,400 YFS
Todd Gurley: 278 carries, 885 yards, 6 TD, 3.2 YPC - 43 receptions, 327 yards, 7.6 YPR, 0TD - 1,212 YFS

And as I pointed out, Forte's fall in his sophmore year was expected after getting 380 touches in his rookie year. Gurley only saw 321 touches in his rookie year so there was excuse for him.

14 hours ago, jrry32 said:
Quote

Furthermore, while there are certainly times where a player's deficiency and/or downfall in production can be easily attributed to poor coaching and play-calling. There are also times where it's the players themselves who are 100% at fault.

In Gurley's case, are you just going to ignore the pre-season in 2016 when his own lineman were even claiming that he wasn't on the same page? Now, they both(Gurley and OL) went back and forth on blame through the media so there's no telling who the REAL blame for that was. But in the scheme of things, not getting on the same page with the guys who ultimately "pave the way" for you and then putting up the lackluster numbers that he did vs his rookie year afterwards, kind of speaks for itself. 

 

I watched the 2016 Rams. I watched every single atrocious game. Gurley wasn't on the same page as his OLs. His OLs weren't on the same page with each other. The TEs weren't on the same page with anyone. It was a total disaster. The OL was the biggest disaster on the team. They were never in sync. 

I don't need to concern myself with who was at fault. It became quite obvious in 2017 who was at fault. The Rams hired an offensive genius, a great OL Coach, and brought in a couple veterans to lead the OL. The OL was suddenly in sync, and Gurley was suddenly playing incredible football. 

We're not talking about 2017 though. We're talking about 2016 in training camp where his own lineman was calling him out publicly for not being on the same page. Like I said before, his lack of production speaks for itself on who was more to blame for that, imo. 

It's not every day when a RB's own offensive lineman are collectively, and publicly, calling out their RB. And when said RB fails to produce after such a call out.....that says alot.

But I digress. Because now I'm being a hypocrite just by still engaging in this discussion.

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2 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

But I digress. Because now I'm being a hypocrite just by still engaging in this discussion.

Please, do. I've already told jrry, now I'm telling you: Stick to the topic. 

- ET

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3 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Please, do. I've already told jrry, now I'm telling you: Stick to the topic. 

- ET

Understood.

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Posted (edited)

Jim Brown,Marshall Faulk, Eric Dickerson for me, If they ran the offenses they have now, Brown would have just as many receptions as some of the other backs. Faulk is a whole offense rolled into a back, Dickerson was and still is criminally underrated,there were other guys who were really good but didn't have as much acclaim or years as others.

Warrick Dunn, Roger Craig, Priest Holmes,Ricky Waters, Edgerrin James, Shaun Alexander, Ricky Williams,Marcus Allen.

Edited by MSURacerDT55

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13 hours ago, khaosoy said:

Again, Jim Brown was just the best athlete on the field in every game he played in and it was generally not even close. Consider this, in the 1960s, DTs weighed around 250 pounds and LBs weighed 220. Jim Brown was 6'2" and 230-240 lbs and was jacked, he also ran a 9.8 in the 100. He was so much more physically gifted than anyone else that he could more or less do whatever he wanted on the field.

Payton, on the other hand, was 5'10" and 205 lbs. 

So while someone could argue that Brown's greatness shouldn't be diminished because he was in the right place at the right time (Randy Moss), I tend to favor players who accomplish the same or more based on extra effort and passion for the game in which case I hold the like of Payton and Rice in very high regard.

No doubt Brown was a gifted, durable, hardworking back, who is still deserving in the RB GOAT discussion. But I still have to go with Payton as the more versatile, complete back. Even with a great RB, blocking matters in this discussion. Brown just wasn't a willing blocker, despite his size and strength, and the fact defensive players were lighter in the 50s and 60s. The Browns weren't going to press the issue with him, but the lack of effort in this area was strange. By contrast, Payton blocked well, and this was against the heavier defenders of the 70s and 80s.   

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13 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

No doubt Brown was a gifted, durable, hardworking back, who is still deserving in the RB GOAT discussion. But I still have to go with Payton as the more versatile, complete back. Even with a great RB, blocking matters in this discussion. Brown just wasn't a willing blocker, despite his size and strength, and the fact defensive players were lighter in the 50s and 60s. The Browns weren't going to press the issue with him, but the lack of effort in this area was strange. By contrast, Payton blocked well, and this was against the heavier defenders of the 70s and 80s.   

Yeah, Brown had that arrogance about him, similar to Randy Moss, that many extremely gifted players have. They often lack the team mentality that elevates guys like Payton. 

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Walter being the right answer and power not even required only leaping.

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The only reason there are other names coming up in this conversation is that youngsters only think of Sweetness on the ‘84-‘86 Bears. They don’t realise that he played on some of the most one dimensional offenses in history prior to ‘83 with 11 defensive players aiming themselves at him alone.

Nobody comes close.

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On 6/6/2018 at 2:51 AM, saintsfan said:

Alvin Kamara

Most complete back in nfl history that hasn’t run for 1000 yards in his career or in a season.* that isn’t Bo Jackson**

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Thurman Thomas should definitely be in the conversation

 

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On 6/5/2018 at 10:51 AM, saintsfan said:

Alvin Kamara

I'd like to think you're joking, but knowing how hard Saints fans have been gargling this dude, it wouldn't surprise me if this were a real take.

Jim Brown>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Walter Payton.

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For me it's a pair of Chicago backs:

Gale Sayers and Walter Payton.  I never got to see either play, but my step-dad says Payton was one of the best he's ever seen.  My step-grandfather said that Sayers was unbelievable.  Would be at one place one moment and almost teleport to a whole other place.  Could create his own hole to go through.  Could be surrounded by 5 guys and manage to escape without being touched.

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