Nick Bosa vs Ed Oliver

[Texansfan713]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 12:33 PM, YogiBiz said:

I’m done with this Oliver isn’t producing a lot narrative. What do you expect he is literally the only defender on Houston that needs any attention whatsoever. When a single player needs to be gameplanned for or else, that’s how you know you have a great prospect. 

you are sort of right.   UH has talent on the DL.  It sucks now because Isaiah Chambers got hurt for the season. He was on his way to having a potential double digit sack season.  Oliver is being misused with this stupid defensive scheme and he still producing.  The guy is a stud.

[RaidersAreOne]

Raiders taking both.

[Jeezla]

1 hour ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Raiders taking both.

Nah, they'll take Bosa, but Quinnen and Ed will be gone by the cowboys/bears picks. Most likely looking at Bosa/Simmons or Tillery or some DT not named Oliver or Williams. 

Then maybe Jaylon Ferguson at the top of the 2nd. 

Something like this:

1 Bosa

1 N'keal Harry 

1 Jeffrey Simmons

2 Jaylon Ferguson

Oooo that would be a nice 1st.

Maybe swap Mack Wilson for Simmons since it's been like 10 years since the raiders had a good mlb/ilb.

[YogiBiz]

On 10/22/2018 at 2:53 PM, Texansfan713 said:

you are sort of right.   UH has talent on the DL.  It sucks now because Isaiah Chambers got hurt for the season. He was on his way to having a potential double digit sack season.  Oliver is being misused with this stupid defensive scheme and he still producing.  The guy is a stud.

I guess I misspoke, I meant Oliver needs to be the primary focus of every offense even while he is playing out of position, or he will wreak havoc. 

[Texansfan713]

Speaking of Oliver....Navy plays dirty af.  They kept chop blocking him.  He might miss Sat and even next week.  SMH

[MistaBohmbastic]

3 hours ago, Texansfan713 said:

Speaking of Oliver....Navy plays dirty af.  They kept chop blocking him.  He might miss Sat and even next week.  SMH

Did he leave the game or anything? Or is he just recovering from it?

[JaguarCrazy2832]

On 10/22/2018 at 5:46 PM, Jeezla said:

Nah, they'll take Bosa, but Quinnen and Ed will be gone by the cowboys/bears picks. Most likely looking at Bosa/Simmons or Tillery or some DT not named Oliver or Williams. 

Then maybe Jaylon Ferguson at the top of the 2nd. 

Something like this:

1 Bosa

1 N'keal Harry 

1 Jeffrey Simmons

2 Jaylon Ferguson

Oooo that would be a nice 1st.

Maybe swap Mack Wilson for Simmons since it's been like 10 years since the raiders had a good mlb/ilb.

What if they flipped the Cowboys & Bears pick into a higher 1st and got both? Its possible Dallas finishes bad enough to make that trade possible

[Texansfan713]

15 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Did he leave the game or anything? Or is he just recovering from it?

he left the game..he didnt come back in. 

[MistaBohmbastic]

8 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

he left the game..he didnt come back in. 

Thanks, man. Was not aware of that. Probably not a concern long term, but damn, that really sucks.

[IDOG_det]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:45 AM, MSURacerDT55 said:

He either is or he isn't, and tbh, he had really refined hands and played with great leverage despite being the height from what I last year, just saying and how can we determine what instinctual is without knowing what the defensive call was?

TBH, It actually looks like he is the focus of opposing team's offensive schemes and it causes Williams to breakout because of Raekwon, the skillset is still there, the opportunities aren't. A trained eye will recognize this

 

So, I left this discussion alone because it's not really the right thread for it but I'm bored and procrastinating so I'll bring it back up. I think a lot of this discussion needs to be put in context, and I think you made a good point with the bolded and I want to expand on it. @MistaBohmbastic @ClutchDJ

First, Quinnen Williams is a great player. But his disruptive play this year doesn't mean he's better than Raekwon Davis. People need to understand how Nick Saban wants his defense to work and how he's adjusted it to keep up with spread offenses in college. Saban wants his DL to contain running QBs and I don't think that will ever change. You can look back to a lot of past Alabama defenses and you'll see a NT sitting at the top of the pocket on damn near every pass. If not, you'll see a stunt or a twist that moves someone else into that position. Saban recruited a ton of NT bodies that weren't explosive athletes. Look back at guys like Terrance Cody, Josh Chapman, Marcell Dareus, Damian Square, Jesse Williams, Ed Stinson, Jarren Reed, A'Shawn Robinson, Dalvin Tomlinson, etc... a bunch of NT bodies and only one really explosive athlete (Dareus). All of those guys were often asked to play the run, play a rush lane, and nothing more. Pass rush wasn't supposed to come from the interior, they needed to stay home and prevent the QB from running. The rush needed to come from the edge.

Then 2014-2015 Saban adjusted. He recruiting guys like Jonathan Allen and Da'Shawn Hand and played them in "tweener" roles to keep more big bodies on the field. They often played as weakside ends and kept everything contained allowing for more twists and blitzes to manufacture a pass rush. Saban still wanted to have NTs sitting at the front of the pocket, so adding a jumbo WDE allowed him to maintain run integrity while running more nickel sets. They went from three DT bodies to two DT bodies and one "tweener" type.

Then in 2017 Saban adjusted, again. Suddenly he had guys like Da'Shawn Hand and Isaiah Buggs to play that jumbo WDE role. He had a hell of an explosive player in Da'Ron Payne at NT. He had a great emerging rusher in Raekwon Davis. And he had a glut of talent to play at LB on the strongside. He had Anfernee Jennings, who could play that spot as Courtney Upshaw did. He also had Rashaan Evans, Christian Miller, and Terrell Lewis who could rotate in and rush from that spot in obvious rush situations. Suddenly the defense was able to be attacking because Saban recruited a bunch of explosive athletes at all spots up front. The WDE wasn't going to see a double team, so that meant one of Da'Ron Payne, Raekwon Davis/Isaiah Buggs, and Anfernee Jennings/LBs would see a double team sent their way. You can guess from that list who saw the most doubles. Da'Ron Payne played NT and got a lot of doubles. Raekwon Davis played the UT and got a lot of singles. Anfernee Jennings played the SLB/standup DE role and saw a lot of singles with the occasional chip. In the past Saban wanted both of his DTs to get doubled to open things up for his ILBs, now he's getting an explosive athlete like Raekwon Davis singled up. The doubled DT (Payne) stays back to prevent the QB scramble while the singled up DT (Raekwon) attacks upfield to pressure the QB. The WDE keeps contain to his side and tries to narrow the pocket. The SLB does the same on his side. The QB has nowhere to go on either side, can't go forward, and will be pressured if the DT can win in his 1-on-1 pass rush.

And now this year things are pretty much the same. Isaiah Buggs replaces Da'Shawn Hand and contains the weakside. Anfernee Jennings keeps his spot and keeps the edge on the frontside. Raekwon Davis keeps his spots. Quinnen Williams replaces Da'Ron Payne at NT. The DT facing a double stays back, while the DT facing the single attacks. The only thing that's different is that teams are sliding protection towards Raekwon Davis now (and doubling him). Last year they were doing that to Da'Ron Payne. So, while Quinnen Williams replaces Da'Ron Payne in the physical location in the defense, the reality is that Raekwon Davis replaces Da'Ron Payne's role and Quinnen Williams is really replacing Raekwon Davis' role from last year. Raekwon Davis isn't getting many chances to attack upfield and rush because he's doing his job. Quinnen Williams is getting those chances to attack upfield and rush because he's the one getting protection slid away from him on most occasions. Reverse the roles and the impact would follow. We saw what Raekwon Davis can do in that role last year. And now we get to see him take on doubles and dominate the run game this year. Honestly, saying that Quinnen > Raekwon feels like recency bias to me.

 

[Calvert28]

On 10/22/2018 at 4:46 PM, Jeezla said:

Nah, they'll take Bosa, but Quinnen and Ed will be gone by the cowboys/bears picks. Most likely looking at Bosa/Simmons or Tillery or some DT not named Oliver or Williams. 

Then maybe Jaylon Ferguson at the top of the 2nd. 

Something like this:

1 Bosa

1 N'keal Harry 

1 Jeffrey Simmons

2 Jaylon Ferguson

Oooo that would be a nice 1st.

Maybe swap Mack Wilson for Simmons since it's been like 10 years since the raiders had a good mlb/ilb.

Laughing at this quote. Not because your wrong  but because you're right and wrong at the same time. Raiders can probably get both now. Although I'm not sure why with both Hurst and Hall on the roster. 

[BleedTheClock]

8 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

Laughing at this quote. Not because your wrong  but because you're right and wrong at the same time. Raiders can probably get both now. Although I'm not sure why with both Hurst and Hall on the roster. 

The sad thing about the Raiders is they could take Oliver and Bosa in the 1st round and still use help on their DL. They have glaring holes at both DE spots.

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

The sad thing about the Raiders is they could take Oliver and Bosa in the 1st round and still use help on their DL. They have glaring holes at both DE spots.

Well with a crap ton in cap space. And our FO being the morons that they are. I bet the get DLaw in FA too cause he would just be too expensive for us. 

[Humble_Beast]

2 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

The sad thing about the Raiders is they could take Oliver and Bosa in the 1st round and still use help on their DL. They have glaring holes at both DE spots.

this is actually true.... Hurst, Hall, and Key are promising but they haven't lit the world on fire.. just cut Bruce Irvin, have nothing at DE..... our NT Jelly been out, and Hankins been meh... could see 4 new Dlineman.... 

[Broncofan]

Man Ed Oliver’s draft stock taking a huge hit this month.   The HOU scheme doesn’t let him produce huge #’s but this incident tonight is going to raise Q’s: 

The context - team rules say only players who are playing can wear those jackets.  Oliver wasn’t playing tonight.  Apparently the trainer was telling Oliver to take off the jacket but no reaction - which led to the coach’s actions above. Now it wasn’t necessarily the most smooth way to handle it - but Oliver going after the coach as they left the field isn’t a good look either   . 

I still believe Oliver is going to display huge talent at the Combine (generational #’s not out of question) and his pre-2018 tape is going to be really impressive.  But the whispers about motor and now this, well he was hotly debated as the 1.1 pick vs. Bosa - now a fall out of the top 10 could happen given how there are such great talents at DL still available. 

I also wouldn’t be surprised if we see Oliver shut it down to get ready for the Combine.   Which wouldn’t quell the whispers but seems very possible.