Soko Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, tyler735 said: I'm just going to copy this from a previous post and see if you can offer an adequate response: Are there any examples of young Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber RB's not being able to effectively handle more carries? At this point, Alvin Kamara has touched the ball 292 in 20 games, or about 15 times per game. I just don't know what more people are waiting for, and if there are any reasonable examples of a similarly talented player failing to take over a larger workload when given the opportunity. If there are examples of this that I'm missing I'm curious to see, but I just don't get the logic at this point until I see some examples of this even being a thing. I know that it has been talked about all the time with undersized RB's for years on this forum, but I don't recall anyone citing an examples of this actually being something that has effected a talented player like this. Just going off memory I recall similar comments regarding guys like Jamaal Charles, Lesean McCoy, and Chris Johnson. Touches = / = carries. I never said touches, I’ve always said carries. Lesean McCoy was carrying the ball 250-325 times per season. Charles, when healthy, was in the ~250 range. Johnson was a 250-350 carry guy. Kamara has less than 200 in 22 games. Even if you think Kamara’s ability is similar to that of Gurley’s or Bell’s, they have proven to carry heavy loads for multiple seasons. Kamara hasn’t yet. Does it mean he can’t? No. Does it mean he won’t? No. It means he hasn’t done it yet. And if we’re comparing him to guys that have, it’s a strike against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Touches = / = carries. I never said touches, I’ve always said carries. Lesean McCoy was carrying the ball 250-325 times per season. Charles, when healthy, was in the ~250 range. Johnson was a 250-350 carry guy. Kamara has less than 200 in 22 games. Even if you think Kamara’s ability is similar to that of Gurley’s or Bell’s, they have proven to carry heavy loads for multiple seasons. Kamara hasn’t yet. Does it mean he can’t? No. Does it mean he won’t? No. It means he hasn’t done it yet. And if we’re comparing him to guys that have, it’s a strike against him. So again I ask: "Are there any examples of young Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber RB's not being able to effectively handle more carries?" I had similar conversations on this forum almost 10 years ago regarding Jamaal Charles among the best RB's because he didn't have "work horse" carries early in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 29 minutes ago, tyler735 said: So again I ask: "Are there any examples of young Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber RB's not being able to effectively handle more carries?" I had similar conversations on this forum almost 10 years ago regarding Jamaal Charles among the best RB's because he didn't have "work horse" carries early in his career. Point me to any “young, Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber” RBs that have ~175 career carries? That’s like me saying Patrick Mahomes is the best QB in the league - name one young guy who has thrown 13 TDs in the first 3 games of a season that has fallen off? Much easier to just keep copying dumb questions than it is to respond, I guess. Shrug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 42 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Point me to any “young, Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber” RBs that have ~175 career carries? That’s like me saying Patrick Mahomes is the best QB in the league - name one young guy who has thrown 13 TDs in the first 3 games of a season that has fallen off? Much easier to just keep copying dumb questions than it is to respond, I guess. Shrug. So there wasn't an answer to that question then? Perfect! You can't find any reasonable examples of a guy not being able to "carry the load" after putting up a big season at RB. I'm going to stick with the viewpoint of either you can play at a high level or you can't. Kamara has shown for over a year he can. You can put these silly "strikes" against him all you want, but it doesn't make it valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, tyler735 said: So there wasn't an answer to that question then? Perfect! You can't find any reasonable examples of a guy not being able to "carry the load" after putting up a big season at RB. I'm going to stick with the viewpoint of either you can play at a high level or you can't. Kamara has shown for over a year he can. You can put these silly "strikes" against him all you want, but it doesn't make it valid. Do...do you really not see how dumb a question it is? I’m not even being facetious this time. It just doesn’t make sense. Is Mahomes the best QB in the league because no one with 13 TD passes in 3 games has ever fallen off? No. Because no one has thrown 13 TDs in 3 games. That doesn’t make him the best. So Kamara, fitting a very specific “young, pro bowl back, that doesn’t have many career carries, that gets a lot more carries in his future” mold, doesn’t prove anything. And I never said he couldn’t play. Not once. So if it’s either you can play or you can’t, then you agree with me. Congrats. But the thread isn’t about whether or not he can play. It’s about whether or not he’s the best. You want to put him above the elites of the league despite showing less? Go for it, it’s...well, obvious you’ve had something for the guy since mid season 2017. But others want to see him prove it before actually saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, tyler735 said: So again I ask: "Are there any examples of young Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber RB's not being able to effectively handle more carries?" I had similar conversations on this forum almost 10 years ago regarding Jamaal Charles among the best RB's because he didn't have "work horse" carries early in his career. People have different standard's when it comes to being the best. But for what a RB is meant for, he leaves a few areas left to be desired and people set bars for certain positions to be considered elite or what not. What your checklist is and what you want to leave out. You could just as easily call him the best WR in the NFL and argue his lack of receptions shouldn't be held against him because he was rushing alot too. Maybe just state what your standards are for an Elite RB and leave it at that with your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Do...do you really not see how dumb a question it is? I’m not even being facetious this time. It just doesn’t make sense. Is Mahomes the best QB in the league because no one with 13 TD passes in 3 games has ever fallen off? No. Because no one has thrown 13 TDs in 3 games. That doesn’t make him the best. So Kamara, fitting a very specific “young, pro bowl back, that doesn’t have many career carries, that gets a lot more carries in his future” mold, doesn’t prove anything. And I never said he couldn’t play. Not once. So if it’s either you can play or you can’t, then you agree with me. Congrats. But the thread isn’t about whether or not he can play. It’s about whether or not he’s the best. You want to put him above the elites of the league despite showing less? Go for it, it’s...well, obvious you’ve had something for the guy since mid season 2017. But others want to see him prove it before actually saying it. Kamara can very well be an elite RB well into his 30s with his current usage...meanwhile, “workhorses” who difficulty matching Kamara’s production will contribuebto follow the decline after age 29 trajectory. I think I’m done arguing. I’ll let the history books do the arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 25 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Do...do you really not see how dumb a question it is? I’m not even being facetious this time. It just doesn’t make sense. Is Mahomes the best QB in the league because no one with 13 TD passes in 3 games has ever fallen off? No. Because no one has thrown 13 TDs in 3 games. That doesn’t make him the best. So Kamara, fitting a very specific “young, pro bowl back, that doesn’t have many career carries, that gets a lot more carries in his future” mold, doesn’t prove anything. And I never said he couldn’t play. Not once. So if it’s either you can play or you can’t, then you agree with me. Congrats. But the thread isn’t about whether or not he can play. It’s about whether or not he’s the best. You want to put him above the elites of the league despite showing less? Go for it, it’s...well, obvious you’ve had something for the guy since mid season 2017. But others want to see him prove it before actually saying it. Not a dumb question. If you can't find a player in NFL history at RB who has had comparable early success to Kamara and hasn't been able to continue their success then it isn't a valid complaint against Kamara. Your counter example of Mahomes isn't a valid comparison QB's and RB's are much different and we are working with a 22 game sample size with Kamara vs. About a 4 game sample size with Mahomes I put him right there with the elites not above them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 16 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: Kamara can very well be an elite RB well into his 30s with his current usage...meanwhile, “workhorses” who difficulty matching Kamara’s production will contribuebto follow the decline after age 29 trajectory. I think I’m done arguing. I’ll let the history books do the arguing. I don’t disagree with that statement for the most part. Don’t recall saying anything that can even be construed into disagreeing with that, actually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Not a dumb question. If you can't find a player in NFL history at RB who has had comparable early success to Kamara and hasn't been able to continue their success then it isn't a valid complaint against Kamara. Your counter example of Mahomes isn't a valid comparison QB's and RB's are much different and we are working with a 22 game sample size with Kamara vs. About a 4 game sample size with Mahomes I put him right there with the elites not above them. It is a dumb question. And I explained why. You asked a question with pre-requisites that barely anyone but Kamara fit, then added in your own piece to make it seem like there aren’t examples of running backs who couldn’t handle heavy workloads. I mean, it doesn’t help you keep changing your criteria to seem right, either. First you said: 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: Are there any examples of young Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber RB's not being able to effectively handle more carries? So, are there examples of guys who were young, pro bowl caliber RBs that had similar carries to Kamara (~175 career), that later got more carries and couldn’t handle it. But then you said: 1 hour ago, tyler735 said: You can't find any reasonable examples of a guy not being able to "carry the load" after putting up a big season at RB. Not quite the same, is it? So if you can’t find an example of someone with Mahomes’ early success in NFL history, then asking him to prove it simply isn’t a valid complaint. EDIT: This is why I hate even commenting on half of the Saints threads. Happened with Lattimore, happened with Kamara. I like both and think both are spectacular, young players. But I say “I want to see them prove it with more time/carries” and all these strawmen get thrown out, then I get turned around to argue against players I like. Thanks, man. Edited October 3, 2018 by Yin-Yang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Well, if we're talking high YPC, here's a guy who was really good for a few years and then fell off out of nowhere: http://www.nfl.com/player/jeriousnorwood/2495921/profile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 28 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: It is a dumb question. And I explained why. You asked a question with pre-requisites that barely anyone but Kamara fit, then added in your own piece to make it seem like there aren’t examples of running backs who couldn’t handle heavy workloads. I mean, it doesn’t help you keep changing your criteria to seem right, either. First you said: So, are there examples of guys who were young, pro bowl caliber RBs that had similar carries to Kamara (~175 career), that later got more carries and couldn’t handle it. But then you said: Not quite the same, is it? So if you can’t find an example of someone with Mahomes’ early success in NFL history, then asking him to prove it simply isn’t a valid complaint. EDIT: This is why I hate even commenting on half of the Saints threads. Happened with Lattimore, happened with Kamara. I like both and think both are spectacular, young players. But I say “I want to see them prove it with more time/carries” and all these strawmen get thrown out, then I get turned around to argue against players I like. Thanks, man. You're welcome glad I could help you play the victim card. You haven't been able to find anyone with any of the criteria I've mentioned since it would be remarkably rare for someone playing at the level Kamara has been to just stop producing at a high level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 51 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Not a dumb question. If you can't find a player in NFL history at RB who has had comparable early success to Kamara and hasn't been able to continue their success then it isn't a valid complaint against Kamara Larry Johnson with Kansas City comes to mind. Ran like gangbusters his first two seasons as a starter (2005, 2006) then completely cratered out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, ET80 said: 54 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Not a dumb question. If you can't find a player in NFL history at RB who has had comparable early success to Kamara and hasn't been able to continue their success then it isn't a valid complaint against Kamara Larry Johnson with Kansas City comes to mind. Ran like gangbusters his first two seasons as a starter (2005, 2006) then completely cratered out. Steve Slaton after his rookie year in Houston. Dominick Davis, Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, ET80 said: 3 minutes ago, ET80 said: 56 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Not a dumb question. If you can't find a player in NFL history at RB who has had comparable early success to Kamara and hasn't been able to continue their success then it isn't a valid complaint against Kamara Larry Johnson with Kansas City comes to mind. Ran like gangbusters his first two seasons as a starter (2005, 2006) then completely cratered out. Steve Slaton after his rookie year in Houston. Dominick Davis, Houston. Carnell "Cadillac" Williams in Tampa. Ronnie Brown in Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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