MVP Race

[MookieMonstah]

7 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

 Because I want to know what you really think of Goff 

Probably take Mahomes. Maybe Wentz.

[SmittyBacall]

7 hours ago, tyler735 said:

And Gurley had 7 catches for 11 yards...but narratives and stuff..

The initial point was, if you have a great offense (the Saints do). Focusing on stopping Gurley (19 touches for 79 yards), so he can't take control of the clock and forcing Goff into a shootout is the better option as it takes up less clock time, and allows more chances for a guy like Drew Brees to see the field. It worked for the Saints in this matchup. 

If the Saints seemingly score at will why would you want the other team to slow the clock (and have a better chance at a big play) by passing? Shouldn't you want them to run so consistently burn clock so they have less time to keep up with your offense?

[SmittyBacall]

7 hours ago, Raves said:

Alex Smith for Goff as that'd be a more apt relational comparison.

Pardon?!

7 hours ago, Raves said:

Heck through 11 games Mahomes is having a better season than ANY of Big Ben's seasons. 

Well considering the drastic change in the NFL seemingly overnight where nearly every QB is having a career year this season I don't think this is a fair comparison. You're essentially comparing across two eras. He's currently on pace for 35 TDs, which would surpass his career high by 3. 

7 hours ago, Raves said:

I think he's closer to what Tom Brady is with skill set, not his career accolades don't get them confused with his ability as a QB, but a smart pocket passer that is accurate and not the most mobile.

You mean like Drew Brees?

7 hours ago, Raves said:

For that case I take the Rodgers skill set for my QB, even a more turnover prone one, over a Tom Brady skill set. 

So you're picking Mahomes but can't seem to admit it for some reason.

[TheKillerNacho]

Brees and it isn't close.

[Raves]

2 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

7 hours ago, Raves said:

Alex Smith for Goff as that'd be a more apt relational comparison.

Pardon?!

7 hours ago, Raves said:

Heck through 11 games Mahomes is having a better season than ANY of Big Ben's seasons. 

Well considering the drastic change in the NFL seemingly overnight where nearly every QB is having a career year this season I don't think this is a fair comparison. You're essentially comparing across two eras. He's currently on pace for 35 TDs, which would surpass his career high by 3. 

7 hours ago, Raves said:

I think he's closer to what Tom Brady is with skill set, not his career accolades don't get them confused with his ability as a QB, but a smart pocket passer that is accurate and not the most mobile.

You mean like Drew Brees?

7 hours ago, Raves said:

For that case I take the Rodgers skill set for my QB, even a more turnover prone one, over a Tom Brady skill set. 

So you're picking Mahomes but can't seem to admit it for some reason.

1.  If you are comparing Mahomes to Big Ben, a more apt comparison for Goff would be Alex Smith.  I've always had Brees much higher than Big Ben so the comparison isn't apt.  As someone else mentioned maybe Matt Ryan would've been a better option than Alex Smith in that regard, which I think is fair, but in that case I would take Big Ben over Matt Ryan.

2.  I still don't see the comparison besides both being able to run and have a big arm.  Mahomes is a much better passer than Big Ben and it's not even close.  I feel like Mahomes can make just about any throw you ask him too, I can't say I feel the same about Big Ben which is why I felt Aaron Rodgers was a better comparison, though obviously Mahomes is less accurate than Rodgers and more turnover prone.  Both are able to make any throw you need them too and mobile enough to take advantage of defenses that give them the opportunity.

3.  Brees doesn't have the arm strength of Tom and I think Goff has a better arm as well.  I also think Brees is maybe a little better at offense control and more of a mental QB than Brady, but I think overall Goff and Brady's skill sets match-up very well.

5.  I think Mahomes has more ability as a thrower than Goff and although he's had some turnover problems this year, most weren't just bad decisions like a QB like Stafford has had who I think has more ability as a thrower than Goff but isn't as good of a decision maker.

[SteelKing728]

21 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

Nothing entertains me more than Vikings fans absolutely loathing the Saints 18 years later hahaha

I just find Brees incredibly annoying.

And besides, Minnesota got their revenge. We're even now, I suppose.

[tyler735]

28 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

If the Saints seemingly score at will why would you want the other team to slow the clock (and have a better chance at a big play) by passing? Shouldn't you want them to run so consistently burn clock so they have less time to keep up with your offense?

The Rams seemingly score at will

[SmittyBacall]

59 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

The Rams seemingly score at will

So you're saying if you had to pick a poison, it would be Goff because he'd stop the clock more often? Okay, that makes sense. I understand what you're getting at. But to me that game-plans success has less to do with the clock and more to do with putting Goff, or any QB for that matter, in difficult down and distances. Don't you? You'd be worsening the offenses percentages of success at that point. Plus the Rams had to play catch up so the run was rightfully neglected.

[SmittyBacall]

1 hour ago, Raves said:

1.  If you are comparing Mahomes to Big Ben, a more apt comparison for Goff would be Alex Smith.  I've always had Brees much higher than Big Ben so the comparison isn't apt.  As someone else mentioned maybe Matt Ryan would've been a better option than Alex Smith in that regard, which I think is fair, but in that case I would take Big Ben over Matt Ryan.

The Alex Smith/Jared Goff comparison is terribly insulting and inaccurate. Goff has an all-around better arm and can actually attack the field deep. Whereas Ryan's deep ball is essentially a quacking punt. And that's just one huge difference. Apples to oranges.

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Mahomes is a much better passer than Big Ben and it's not even close.  I feel like Mahomes can make just about any throw you ask him too,

Then go with the Rodgers comparison instead, or a prime young Big Ben.

1 hour ago, Raves said:

2.  I still don't see the comparison besides both being able to run and have a big arm.  Mahomes is a much better passer than Big Ben and it's not even close.  I feel like Mahomes can make just about any throw you ask him too, I can't say I feel the same about Big Ben which is why I felt Aaron Rodgers was a better comparison, though obviously Mahomes is less accurate than Rodgers and more turnover prone.  Both are able to make any throw you need them too and mobile enough to take advantage of defenses that give them the opportunity.

You're focusing on the details too much and neglecting the point of the comparison. Yes, the Rodgers comparison (sans turnovers) is more apt, but the point still stands. You prefer the mobile, gun-slinging QB except when it comes to Drew Brees. You're contradicting yourself. 

1 hour ago, Raves said:

3.  Brees doesn't have the arm strength of Tom and I think Goff has a better arm as well.  I also think Brees is maybe a little better at offense control and more of a mental QB than Brady, but I think overall Goff and Brady's skill sets match-up very well.

So Brees isn't a smart pocket passer with limited mobility? Also the bolded holds absolutely no merit. 

 

You're all over the place, man. I can't follow your arguments. You keep moving the goal-posts and deflecting. I don't really know what to say. 

[Raves]

5 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

1 hour ago, Raves said:

1.  If you are comparing Mahomes to Big Ben, a more apt comparison for Goff would be Alex Smith.  I've always had Brees much higher than Big Ben so the comparison isn't apt.  As someone else mentioned maybe Matt Ryan would've been a better option than Alex Smith in that regard, which I think is fair, but in that case I would take Big Ben over Matt Ryan.

The Alex Smith/Jared Goff comparison is terribly insulting and inaccurate. Goff has an all-around better arm and can actually attack the field deep. Whereas Ryan's deep ball is essentially a quacking punt. And that's just one huge difference. Apples to oranges.

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Mahomes is a much better passer than Big Ben and it's not even close.  I feel like Mahomes can make just about any throw you ask him too,

Then go with the Rodgers comparison instead, or a prime young Big Ben.

1 hour ago, Raves said:

2.  I still don't see the comparison besides both being able to run and have a big arm.  Mahomes is a much better passer than Big Ben and it's not even close.  I feel like Mahomes can make just about any throw you ask him too, I can't say I feel the same about Big Ben which is why I felt Aaron Rodgers was a better comparison, though obviously Mahomes is less accurate than Rodgers and more turnover prone.  Both are able to make any throw you need them too and mobile enough to take advantage of defenses that give them the opportunity.

You're focusing on the details too much and neglecting the point of the comparison. Yes, the Rodgers comparison (sans turnovers) is more apt, but the point still stands. You prefer the mobile, gun-slinging QB except when it comes to Drew Brees. You're contradicting yourself. 

1 hour ago, Raves said:

3.  Brees doesn't have the arm strength of Tom and I think Goff has a better arm as well.  I also think Brees is maybe a little better at offense control and more of a mental QB than Brady, but I think overall Goff and Brady's skill sets match-up very well.

So Brees isn't a smart pocket passer with limited mobility? Also the bolded holds absolutely no merit. 

 

You're all over the place, man. I can't follow your arguments. You keep moving the goal-posts and deflecting. I don't really know what to say. 

1.  I said if you were going to compare Mahomes to Big Ben, then a more apt RELATIONAL comparison for Goff was Alex Smith.  As in massively underselling both players on their abilities.  I even went on to say I would prefer a more turnover prone Aaron Rodgers for Mahomes and Tom Brady for Goff as a better comparison than Brees and Big Ben.

2.  I prefer the QB that is both smart and has the higher arm ability.  If a QB has an arm but isn't smart with the ball, Matt Stafford, then I'm not taking them over the smarter QB.  I would take Brees over Favre for that reason.  You are trying to make it out like Mahomes is some pinnacle of inefficiency while Goff is the opposite.  Pretty sure right now they are very close in terms of turnovers produced while Mahomes has had the better production.  So taking the slightly more turnover prone QB with mobility and better arm talent, doesn't have to mean gunslinger, over the slightly less turnover QB that is still more than capable of putting up big numbers while playing within their own offense, isn't an insult.  It's literally like picking between Rodgers/Brees/Manning/Brady based on just their ability, not their team success.  You have no wrong answer with who you pick, it's just a matter of preference on how you want your offense to be ran.

3.  It's my belief, I still think that Brady has been in a system, which really hasn't changed much over the years regardless of who the OC is, that is QB friendly, though Brady is a great QB as well which is why you see the difference between the seasons/starts of Cassell/Jimmy G and what Brady does.  I think that the Saints offense would be a bit different if Brees wasn't the QB as you would lack the quick release, quick decision making, and accuracy from most other QBs that you would put into that system.

I'm not really all over the place, I've been saying the same thing over and over again.

[tyler735]

20 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

So you're saying if you had to pick a poison, it would be Goff because he'd stop the clock more often? Okay, that makes sense. I understand what you're getting at. But to me that game-plans success has less to do with the clock and more to do with putting Goff, or any QB for that matter, in difficult down and distances. Don't you? You'd be worsening the offenses percentages of success at that point. 

Correct, if I had to choose I'd go Goff in this scenario. I don't think it has to be one or the other in regards to clock/putting in difficult down and distances. I'm basing this example off my team (Saints). A team like the Saints biggest defensive strength is currently their Defensive Line. They are going to generate consistent pressure on QB's most weeks (Leading to sacks, incomplete passes, etc). Essentially if they were to focus on stopping the run/getting to the QB, this means they likely have guys close to the line most plays (box stacked). This should, if played right, eliminate a lot of the short game (Gurley 7 catches for 11 yards) and decently cover the intermediate game, but does expose the deep passing game. Just by glancing over the play by play of the Saints/Rams game, I believe Goff had about 7 passing plays of 20+ yards, which does show the Saints were beaten deep several times in that matchup. 

[RaidersAreOne]

Brees. 

[jrry32]

8 hours ago, Raves said:

You can't predict injuries.  I mean Donovan McNabb was fairly mobile and and ran and stayed pretty healthy.  Cam Newton runs a ton and stays healthy.  But I mean I'm only looking for the next 10 years for a QB, so that should be before Mahomes skillset starts to deteriorate.

Donovan McNabb was washed up by 34. The athletic QBs just don't age as well. The hits add up.

2 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

Well Goff isn’t as good as Brees so why would he right now?

Yet, somebody claimed that if Goff had Brees' numbers, he'd get more credit. That's literally what this entire debate is about.

2 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

How was Gurley as a receiver that game? Asking for a friend 

He was good but not very involved. I wish he had been healthy. We could have really exploited them more with him.

[MookieMonstah]

12 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Donovan McNabb was washed up by 34. The athletic QBs just don't age as well. The hits add up.

Yet, somebody claimed that if Goff had Brees' numbers, he'd get more credit. That's literally what this entire debate is about.

He was good but not very involved. I wish he had been healthy. We could have really exploited them more with him.

6 catches for 11 yards on 7 targets is good? I think the Saints did a good job of containing Gurley, which is huge. This argument seems silly regardless. Can't really prove it one way or the other.

[jrry32]

9 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

6 catches for 11 yards on 7 targets is good? I think the Saints did a good job of containing Gurley, which is huge. This argument seems silly regardless. Can't really prove it one way or the other.

My bad. I thought you were asking about the Chiefs. They contained him well as a receiver, but he was having his way with them as a runner. Trying to argue the Saints took him out of the game is a silly argument. It's quite easy to prove one way or another that they didn't. His rushing numbers clearly show they didn't. This isn't the homer hill worth dying on. You and I both know what forced the Rams to abandon the run, and it wasn't the Saints defense.