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Rolni

Raiders Defense

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1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I saw him as a safety with range and instincts in college too so I would hope that with better coaching and scheming he may well play at a higher level, though I don't think he's been bad, Kelce and Gates and the like generally have their way with most defenders and if a DC sticks a 5'10 safety with limited reach on a 6'5 TE then you're asking for trouble. I'm very interested to see how we play the two safeties as Obi has the size of a SS but plays more like a FS with his range and speed.

I'd have to agree. He's been susceptible to whiffing when one on one in addition to the inevitable problems matching TEs, but I thought he played fairly well last year and made some plays at points too. He, like so many players we have, is gonna have the benefit if the doubt from me until we can rule out that so many of our defensive woes were on Norton and JDR. If Guenther can't make something out of him this season, then I'll start to worry.

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If I was implying he's awful it went too far. He's not, he's just not near to a top end player and not at all what we need out of first rounders. He's not the worst of this awful D, but he's not doing anything to make it an ascending D either.

 

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Maybe this year we won't have so many "eye violations"

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Karl has not been what I thought he could be but if Nelson is starting I might have to change the channel when we are on D to save myself from throwing my tv across the room.

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3 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

This is why PFF grades shouldn't be taken out of context.

Quote

Known more for his hard hits than his textbook tackling, Joseph doesn’t have the size to consistently be a physical presence against the run when playing in the box.

This simply isn't true. Joseph was a very good player against the run when he was in the box. The problem is his lack of length doesn't allow him to match up well against tight ends when he's so close to the line of scrimmage -- that's why his coverage grade is so low.

As a coverage player, Joseph is best when he's player a deep zone. I think having him predominantly playing deep half or deep middle will accentuate his strengths more as a coverage player.

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I think we will have to see what PG brings scheme wise and playcall wise. Karl Joseph looked pretty good in college, but never looked the same with us. While this is true we have to put JDR and Ken Norton and their historically bad D in the picture too. 

I think every player on roster should get a pass on his previous years. Let's see what the new staff can do with them.

It is clear that they are not affraid to let anyone go...we saw how they cleared the CB room, how they let Autry walk and also how they traded Ward, a former high draft pick. 

I think they kept the players whom they think can contribute in some way. Let's see what they have in store for them.

I think Karl will be a solid starter in a 2 deep S system...maybe not the impact guy we hoped after the 1st round pick, but a solid starter would be nice. If he struggles, we can replace him with Gilchrist or Nelson and move on next year, but till then I think this debate is somewhat pointless. 

Of course the forum is for discussion, so no offense here, but it is really hard to talk about our D players based on the last few years. What a difference the Norton-Pagano switch ment for Bruce Irvin right?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rolni said:

I think every player on roster should get a pass on his previous years. Let's see what the new staff can do with them.

I hate this line of thinking. "Get a pass" that is loser talk.  If you're talented, you'll stand out. Mack was still among the best defensive players in football, he doesn't need a pass for last season. Jospeh was overdrafted. He had physical limitations. Everyone wanted to look at him like Bob Sanders (who was a 2nd round pick, right where Joseph should have been). If they wanted a safety, it should have been Neal. 

1 hour ago, Rolni said:

Of course the forum is for discussion, so no offense here, but it is really hard to talk about our D players based on the last few years. What a difference the Norton-Pagano switch ment for Bruce Irvin right?

Talent rises to the top regardless of coaching IMO. Coaching can bring average guys up from game to game. Motivate them in stretches, etc. But if you're a true talent, you'll shine in any situation. Best we can hope is scheme and coaching brings guys like Joseph from average to slightly above average for the majority of games. 

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Mack is an elite player, the rare kind who can perform no matter the situation. I don't think anyone is implying Joseph is elite or has shown anything to suggest he could be elite. Coaching is about maximizing the players' abilities so if our coaching staff is better, some players will look better too. But, as fans, we're not in a position to tell who will and who won't.

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A player should be able to show what they are capable of with bad coaching but you will see it less often.  Now coaching plays a much bigger role in setting players up to succeed.  Prime example is New England.  Every year they have scrubs come in and contribute and players leave that are never close to the same.  Proper preparation is half the battle now.  If one side knows what the other side is doing the game becomes easy.  Do really think Tampa was that much better talent wise than us?  No.  We were the better team but they were better prepared.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, big_palooka said:

 Jospeh was overdrafted. He had physical limitations. Everyone wanted to look at him like Bob Sanders (who was a 2nd round pick, right where Joseph should have been). If they wanted a safety, it should have been Neal. 

I

 

I rarely think Safties should be 1st round picks. I felt Fitzpatrick and James were worth it for different reasons. Fitz being a chess piece like Honey Badger but with more size. James for just being Sean Taylor like. In 2014 I was screaming from 10th on to trade up for Tunsil. Saftey is 2-3rd range in my book. So I think most are overdrafted, even Neal the other S from that class.

Edit: I see Melifonwu as an Iloka type. Plays SS and FS and same size. Hurst will be our Atkins and best of all, no pac-man/Burfellinthedraftfict headcases. I really like how the D is shaping up. Young pass rushers who still need to develop, CB revamp, vet LB's to clean up any dline mistakes from the rooks.

Edited by G

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17 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

Mack is an elite player, the rare kind who can perform no matter the situation. I don't think anyone is implying Joseph is elite or has shown anything to suggest he could be elite. Coaching is about maximizing the players' abilities so if our coaching staff is better, some players will look better too. But, as fans, we're not in a position to tell who will and who won't.

Mack is elite. He is "above" coaching.

The rest is not, so they need good coaching and a good scheme.

We clearly haven't had that lately. So I think a guy like Joseph, who struggled under a bad D staff, could still prove to be a solid/average starter under a good staff. That's all I'm saying...

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17 hours ago, Rolni said:

Mack is elite. He is "above" coaching.

The rest is not, so they need good coaching and a good scheme.

We clearly haven't had that lately. So I think a guy like Joseph, who struggled under a bad D staff, could still prove to be a solid/average starter under a good staff. That's all I'm saying...

Mack needs coaching on how to get the refs to throw flags when he's being mauled!!! It has to be blatent (sp) to give Mack his due.

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4 hours ago, G said:

Mack needs coaching on how to get the refs to throw flags when he's being mauled!!! It has to be blatent (sp) to give Mack his due.

The top players get held almost every play.  It is not like basketball where the top guys get all the calls.  Ask the Rams about the Super Bowl against the Patriots.  BB knew he could hold the WRs every play and they would not call all of the fouls.  It slows the game down.  We need a strong presence on the other side that forces the OT to go 1 on 1 with Mack and then the fouls will become obvious and Mack will win even when held.

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