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Raiders Defense


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2 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

I just dont understand why us Raider fans are trying to get rid of a guy who was 'Borderline elite' for over half the season. 
Do we not remember the Jamarcus Russell, McGloin, Bruce Gradkowski, Pryor, aaron brooks years? 
We finally havve a QB, who is not our biggest problem and we just wanna toss him out because he is 'soft'

I would say it depends on what we get in return.  We have been bad at drafting and FA signings.  I am fine with keeping him based on what he can be but if a QB shows an inability to perform at a high level once the weather changes it might be time to move on or else your team will remain middle of the road.  Carr and Gruden have to prove themselves in this regard.

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5 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

I just dont understand why us Raider fans are trying to get rid of a guy who was 'Borderline elite' for over half the season. 
Do we not remember the Jamarcus Russell, McGloin, Bruce Gradkowski, Pryor, aaron brooks years? 
We finally havve a QB, who is not our biggest problem and we just wanna toss him out because he is 'soft'

Because he crumbles the second half of the season, when the games actually matter?

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56 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

We were 38-74 in the 7 years before Carr arrived and have gone 47-63 in the 7 years he has been here. 

Defense has been straight trash for 15 years with the exception of 2016.

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3 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Because he crumbles the second half of the season, when the games actually matter?

Does he REALLY though?

He had plenty of solid games in the second half of the year that the defense crapped the bed.  

Seems like everyone can only really point to like 2 games at most.

Losing couldn't possibly have anything to do with the D giving up 33.85 points per game over the last 7 games or anything.

Edited by ronjon1990
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2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Does he REALLY though?

He had plenty of solid games in the second half of the year that the defense crapped the bed.  

Seems like everyone can only really point to like 2 games at most.

Losing couldn't possibly have anything to do with the D giving up 33.85 points per game over the last 7 games or anything.

33.85 is an absolute embarrassment.  I knew they were a dumpster fire but giving up nearly 35 per game is ridiculous.  I bet Bama's D last year in college would have faired better than our garbage D.  

Mayock and Gruden should be ashamed of themselves.  If we come close to that number again this season they both need to be fired.

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1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

33.85 is an absolute embarrassment.  I knew they were a dumpster fire but giving up nearly 35 per game is ridiculous.  I bet Bama's D last year in college would have faired better than our garbage D.  

Mayock and Gruden should be ashamed of themselves.  If we come close to that number again this season they both need to be fired.

For context:

Jacksonville, that utter dumpster fire, gave up 31.14 per game over the same span.

Detroit, that other utter dumpster fire, gave up 36 per game over the same span. 

Goes to show virtually nobody is winning with defenses that pathetic.

It's not like Jacksonville was devoid of offensive talent. Minshew isn't great but he's not 1 win awful. Robinson was a pretty good RB. Shenault and Chark along with Cole and Conley are ok. And even at that, the team was clearly tanking and STILL put forth a better D than we did. 

And Detroit? People have been fawning all over Stafford. Amendola, Golliday, Hock, Jones, Swift, Peterson....those aren't terrible weapons. 

In both cases, the blame was placed on bad coaching. Anyone blaming Stafford or Minshew? Nope. 

Our offense was far better than either of them. But Derek Carr is why we were a losing team at the end? 

Jacksonville was gunning for the 1st overall pick and did a better job of stopping opponents from scoring than we did. 

Detroit was practically in a mutiny against Matt Patricia and only gave up 2 points more per game. Stafford, someone many place above Carr, went 1-6 as opposed to our 2-5. Is it Stafford's fault? If he was decent  he would've found ways to win those games, no? 

Our D was trash, and that's why we lost. We averaged 25.5 ppg, tanked by the Atlanta fiasco. Subtract that game, we were still putting up 28.83 ppg. That SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO WIN GAMES AGAINST DAMN NEAR ANYBODY. 

In fact, 28.83 ppg puts us only behind the Packers (31.8), Bills (31.3), Buccaneers (30.8), Titans (30.7), Saints (30.1), Chiefs (29.6), and Ravens (29.2) on the year. So even during our " second half of the season meltdown that Carr clearly caused", we were putting points up like some of the best of 2020. And they all made the playoffs (gasp). 

Our D? In that span, we were giving up more ppg than the league's overall worst D did for the season (Detroit- 32.4 ppg). 

In the "second half of the season" we were still playing like a top 8 offense. We lost because we played like the worst defense in the league.

But yeah, it's Carr's fault. We should've tanked for Tua. We should've traded the house for Wilson (who averaged fewer ppg in the "second half of the season"). We should have already traded for that 28-25 QB coming off of a 4-12 year and staring at missing the 2021 season and possibly beyond. That would've fixed us and made us make the playoffs, no doubt about it! 

Carr haters are just haters. They have so little to stand on it's not even funny anymore. Is he a great HoF QB in the making? Almost certainly not. But he is clearly not the reason we keep missing the playoffs. 

Edited by ronjon1990
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18 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

For context:

Jacksonville, that utter dumpster fire, gave up 31.14 per game over the same span.

Detroit, that other utter dumpster fire, gave up 36 per game over the same span. 

Goes to show virtually nobody is winning with defenses that pathetic.

It's not like Jacksonville was devoid of offensive talent. Minshew isn't great but he's not 1 win awful. Robinson was a pretty good RB. Shenault and Chark along with Cole and Conley are ok. And even at that, the team was clearly tanking and STILL put forth a better D than we did. 

And Detroit? People have been fawning all over Stafford. Amendola, Golliday, Hock, Jones, Swift, Peterson....those aren't terrible weapons. 

In both cases, the blame was placed on bad coaching. Anyone blaming Stafford or Minshew? Nope. 

Our offense was far better than either of them. But Derek Carr is why we were a losing team at the end? 

Jacksonville was gunning for the 1st overall pick and did a better job of stopping opponents from scoring than we did. 

Detroit was practically in a mutiny against Matt Patricia and only gave up 2 points more per game. Stafford, someone many place above Carr, went 1-6 as opposed to our 2-5. Is it Stafford's fault? If he was decent  he would've found ways to win those games, no? 

Our D was trash, and that's why we lost. We averaged 25.5 ppg, tanked by the Atlanta fiasco. Subtract that game, we were still putting up 28.83 ppg. That SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO WIN GAMES AGAINST DAMN NEAR ANYBODY. 

In fact, 28.83 ppg puts us only behind the Packers (31.8), Bills (31.3), Buccaneers (30.8), Titans (30.7), Saints (30.1), Chiefs (29.6), and Ravens (29.2) on the year. So even during our " second half of the season meltdown that Carr clearly caused", we were putting points up like some of the best of 2020. And they all made the playoffs (gasp). 

Our D? In that span, we were giving up more ppg than the league's overall worst D did for the season (Detroit- 32.4 ppg). 

In the "second half of the season" we were still playing like a top 8 offense. We lost because we played like the worst defense in the league.

But yeah, it's Carr's fault. We should've tanked for Tua. We should've traded the house for Wilson (who averaged fewer ppg in the "second half of the season"). We should have already traded for that 28-25 QB coming off of a 4-12 year and staring at missing the 2021 season and possibly beyond. That would've fixed us and made us make the playoffs, no doubt about it! 

Carr haters are just haters. They have so little to stand on it's not even funny anymore. Is he a great HoF QB in the making? Almost certainly not. But he is clearly not the reason we keep missing the playoffs. 

100 percent spot on and you bring up fantastic points.  You're also right that the Carr haters, are just haters and have little to stand on.  What is fascinating is trying to figure out their rational for taking such a ridged stance?  I truly don't believe any fan that understands football can really believe Carr is the problem with this team.  

Our O in the 2nd half of the year was 7th overall in scoring and was with a decimated Oline, a Wr corp that was at best average and a RB that averaged under 4.0 YPC.  7th overall in scoring during that span, top 10 overall on the season says a lot about how good and efficient Carr was with what I consider average at best talent on O. 

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17 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

100 percent spot on and you bring up fantastic points.  You're also right that the Carr haters, are just haters and have little to stand on.  What is fascinating is trying to figure out their rational for taking such a ridged stance?  I truly don't believe any fan that understands football can really believe Carr is the problem with this team.  

My favorite is that he "can't or doesn't elevate players". 

Why? Because we fetishize hyped draft picks as if they're guaranteed hits? 

Amari Cooper sucked when he was here. He just did. He dropped balls constantly. But because he was a fan fave, we have to worship his jock? Bs. 

He's a clear 3rs fiddle in Dallas and about to be on team 3 after this year. 

Ruggs? What has he actually shown? Mayock himself called out his route running- which was supposedly a strength of his. 

The list goes on and on.

But how many of our guys actually look better elsewhere? Very few.

Why? Because we suck at drafting. We got stupid lucky with Carr, considering the amount of Teddy love there was. 

People are going to inevitably blame Carr if Ruggs still underwhelms, I guess because he went to Alabama and was called a surefire stud? EL OH EL. 

I happen to think Carr actually does make our players better, and as with most QBs, can only squeeze so much out of underwhelming talent around him. 

Agholor was a virtual nobody. Waller was a PS guy. Renfrow is hilariously small and not particularly fast. Jacobs is a pseudo-bruiser without breakaway speed. Crabtree was a slower WR. Roberts was awful elsewhere. 

Is it all always 100% Carr? Dear God no. But this whole narrative that he can't elevate players is based solely on misplaced assumptions that because someone is drafted high or went to a premier school, them not being studs must be Carr's inability to elevate. It couldn't possibly be that they're just not very good (like 80% of our draft picks ultimately wind up). 

Brady would've had this team in the playoffs? I highly doubt that. With far superior weapons and playcalling, his offense was barely 2 ppg better than we played when we were apparently "bad". Those two points don't beat what we gave up. Do we really expect Brady to pull another extra net 6 ppg with inferior weapons and coaching? Like, really? Superior weapons and coaching got him 2. 1/3 as many ppg as needed. 

Carr winning the Superbowl with Tampa last year is far more likely than Brady dragging this team to the playoffs. And some folks just can't stand that reality. 

Edited by ronjon1990
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4 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Does he REALLY though?

He had plenty of solid games in the second half of the year that the defense crapped the bed.  

Seems like everyone can only really point to like 2 games at most.

Losing couldn't possibly have anything to do with the D giving up 33.85 points per game over the last 7 games or anything.

I know the defense was bad but you are cherry picking a little here and not giving the full context.  First we are talking about the second half of the season so you have to include the defense holding the Broncos to 12 points.  Second those two games you referenced are the two highest point games were our offense had a combined 8 turnovers.  2 of which where pick sixes.  In total those 8 TOs led to 38 of the 87 points in the two games.  So if we are going to leave out any games it should be the 2 that the offense crapped the bed.  The Falcons D outscored our offense in that game.  So if we adjust for the 2 games that should be thrown out and include the one that should not have been you end up with a 25.33 average points given up in regulation.  If you want to adjust the 2 horrible games then the number drops even more since the defense was responsible for 24.5 points per game in those 2.  That would tie for 16th for a yearly average.  Not good but not horrible.  

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40 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

My favorite is that he "can't or doesn't elevate players". 

Why? Because we fetishize hyped draft picks as if they're guaranteed hits? 

Amari Cooper sucked when he was here. He just did. He dropped balls constantly. But because he was a fan fave, we have to worship his jock? Bs. 

He's a clear 3rs fiddle in Dallas and about to be on team 3 after this year. 

Ruggs? What has he actually shown? Mayock himself called out his route running- which was supposedly a strength of his. 

The list goes on and on.

But how many of our guys actually look better elsewhere? Very few.

Why? Because we suck at drafting. We got stupid lucky with Carr, considering the amount of Teddy love there was. 

People are going to inevitably blame Carr if Ruggs still underwhelms, I guess because he went to Alabama and was called a surefire stud? EL OH EL. 

I happen to think Carr actually does make our players better, and as with most QBs, can only squeeze so much out of underwhelming talent around him. 

Agholor was a virtual nobody. Waller was a PS guy. Renfrow is hilariously small and not particularly fast. Jacobs is a pseudo-bruiser without breakaway speed. Crabtree was a slower WR. Roberts was awful elsewhere. 

Is it all always 100% Carr? Dear God no. But this whole narrative that he can't elevate players is based solely on misplaced assumptions that because someone is drafted high or went to a premier school, them not being studs must be Carr's inability to elevate. It couldn't possibly be that they're just not very good (like 80% of our draft picks ultimately wind up). 

Brady would've had this team in the playoffs? I highly doubt that. With far superior weapons and playcalling, his offense was barely 2 ppg better than we played when we were apparently "bad". Those two points don't beat what we gave up. Do we really expect Brady to pull another extra net 6 ppg with inferior weapons and coaching? Like, really? Superior weapons and coaching got him 2. 1/3 as many ppg as needed. 

Carr winning the Superbowl with Tampa last year is far more likely than Brady dragging this team to the playoffs. And some folks just can't stand that reality. 

Cooper was a 1000 yard WR before Carr started ignoring him and as soon as he was traded he went back to being who he was.   How is he the 3rd on the team when he leads them it targets, catches, yards, and TDs?  Did he drop passes while he was here? Yes he did but so did all of our receivers.

Ruggs I do not know what will happen but he was drafted to high.  That is on the FO.

Carr does make players better.  O-line because he does not plays develope and gets rid of the ball to quickly.  TEs because they seem to be the only position he trusts.  RBs because they get so many looks in the passing game from check downs.  Carr has issues and is improving but how far I do not know.

Brady in key moments would have faired much better than Carr.  Are we a Super Bowl team?  99% sure we are not.  Are we a playoff team?  I think we pull it off.  Brady is a coach on the field and would be one of a couple QBs that would tell Gruden it was a crap play and that is why I changed it.

Carr stands no chance taking TB to the SB.  He is not winning at Lambeau in late January.  

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1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I know the defense was bad but you are cherry picking a little here and not giving the full context.  First we are talking about the second half of the season so you have to include the defense holding the Broncos to 12 points.  Second those two games you referenced are the two highest point games were our offense had a combined 8 turnovers.  2 of which where pick sixes.  In total those 8 TOs led to 38 of the 87 points in the two games.  So if we are going to leave out any games it should be the 2 that the offense crapped the bed.  The Falcons D outscored our offense in that game.  So if we adjust for the 2 games that should be thrown out and include the one that should not have been you end up with a 25.33 average points given up in regulation.  If you want to adjust the 2 horrible games then the number drops even more since the defense was responsible for 24.5 points per game in those 2.  That would tie for 16th for a yearly average.  Not good but not horrible.  

1. We held Drew Lock to 12 points lol. Cause celebré indeed. 

Ok, we'll add it. Still gave up 31.12 points. Still good for one of the the absolute worst marks in the league.

2. The Falcons loss was a team effort. It was a bad game all around. And most teams have them at some point, even the good ones. To place that squarely on Carr is cherry picking at its finest. 

The Colts, ok, we'll take away the pick 6 so our putrid D only gave up 38. They CRUSHED it, didn't they? No, they didn't. Hard to say the offense "crapped the bed" at that clip. 

There's no reason to take either game out of the equation, certainly not 2 lol. 

We can drop the Falcons game though. Still gave up 29.14 ppg, which is still garbage. 

3. Do you know the definition of cherry picking? My comparisons didn't blindly ignore the Denver game, I went from our last win before totally melting down. Which I also accounted for by using the last 7 games for the other teams as well. 

That's called a control. You're arguing to throw out the Falcons game and Colts game. The Falcons, ok, I just did and the results were negligible. I'm not throwing oit the Colts game. That you argue the offense crapped the bed when the D was still on pace to give up 38 is absurd. Hell, take away another score from Indy of you want. Still piss poor. 

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1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

Cooper was a 1000 yard WR before Carr started ignoring him and as soon as he was traded he went back to being who he was.   How is he the 3rd on the team when he leads them it targets, catches, yards, and TDs?  Did he drop passes while he was here? Yes he did but so did all of our receivers.

Ruggs I do not know what will happen but he was drafted to high.  That is on the FO.

Carr does make players better.  O-line because he does not plays develope and gets rid of the ball to quickly.  TEs because they seem to be the only position he trusts.  RBs because they get so many looks in the passing game from check downs.  Carr has issues and is improving but how far I do not know.

Brady in key moments would have faired much better than Carr.  Are we a Super Bowl team?  99% sure we are not.  Are we a playoff team?  I think we pull it off.  Brady is a coach on the field and would be one of a couple QBs that would tell Gruden it was a crap play and that is why I changed it.

Carr stands no chance taking TB to the SB.  He is not winning at Lambeau in late January.  

1. Didn't get open. Dropped balls when he was. I'd ignore him too. 

2. A WR3 playing as a WR1 because of how much was invested in him? He's clearly behind Lamb and Gallup long term. Dallas isn't keeping him. But, hey, if I was playing in that WR corps, I'd get open a lot too. Cooper needs better players around him to make any kind of real iimpact, and that's why he'll be on his 3rd team before long. 

3. Really now?  Because the only D that made the playoffs amd gave up nearly as many points was Tennessee, who rode the best RB in the NFL amd a pretty good offense to an 11-5 record thanks to having Houston and Jacksonville, two of the worst teams in the league, on their schedule twice. Any other division, they're fighting for 9-7 at best, considering how close they got to losing several times. 

Because YOU CAN'T WIN WITH A BOTTOM OF THE PILE DEFENSE NO MATTER WHO YOUR QB IS. 

And if you need the greatest QB of all time to win a couple of more games before inevitably getting blown out in the playoffs, QB isn't your problem. YOUR DEFENSE IS.

Edited by ronjon1990
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