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Rolni
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2 hours ago, Turnobili said:

imagine we just traded our 2 thirds to move up and get JOK in the 2nd

That would have been fantastic. I would have been happy with JOK at 17 although he wasn't my very top choice. 

I mean if I were making the call in the 2nd round I likely would have taken Moehrig, and then tried everything in my power to trade up and land Ojulari. Obviously Crosby and Yannick have been very good, but I believe Ojulari has all pro potential and is skilled and fluid enough to play SLB. Especially in our scheme. And I mean that as not just a DE playing SLB for all intents and purposes. I believe he is skilled enough, fluid enough, has experience in college playing in space, and was very good in college against the run and at his size there may be concerns about his ability to anchor in run defense (not for me personally) at DE, but it wouldnt be a legit concern at SLB. And obviously he would put his hand in the dirt a ton rotating with Crosby and Yannick. Imagine Ojulari coming off the edge standing up beside either of those guys. Good luck. Our pass rush with Crosby, Yannick, and Ojulari would have the potential to be one of the elite pass rushing groups in the NFL and those guys would have us set for the next 5 years. The only question that could possibly make me feel like I would have gone a different direction is if there was some glaring medical red flag for Azeez Ojulari that had doctors saying it was too much of a risk long term to take him in the 1st. I don't have access to that information or the knowledge to understand the implications if I did so I am basing it strictly on my evaluation of him as a prospect. 

People can say it's hindsight, but I loved Ojulari, JOK, and Moehrig before the draft. And I thought going into the draft with such a glaring hole at RT was inexcusable. If I were running things I likely would have made it a point to sign some form of average starting caliber RT that could hold down the fort for a year or so, I would have moved on from Jackson and Brown but kept Hudson and then basically the Martin signing becomes the same caliber player you look to sign at RT, or even OG if you want to play Good at tackle. 

Then come draft day I take Ojulari at 17 (seems like a reach now with where he ended up being drafted but his play on the field so far certainly would have fans feel like we have gotten great return on investment so far), then I take Moehrig with our 2nd because he could have an argument as BPA and at the biggest position of need on defense, and then I use our thirds to move up and take JOK. And I liked him so much I would have gave up both thirds and a 6th or 7th or as high as a future 5th. I had him as a top 20 talent in the draft. 

Or personally I had JOK slightly higher than Moehrig on my big board but FS was a bigger need. Still if you want to take the better overall prospect take JOK with our 2nd, and then move up to the very end of the 2nd round and take Cisco or I also loved and believe can be a pro bowl caliber S. Although he likely wouldn't make as big of an impact immediately. 

To put it simply, we screwed ourselves so much forcing ourselves into HAVING to take a RT and we compounded the problem by taking a vastly inferior OT prospect when compared to someone like Darrishaw, and I had another couple tackles above Leatherwood. I am not giving up on Leatherwood yet. I still believe he can be a quality starter long term. But even if he does, we still left tremendous value on the board. A free agent RT stop gap likely gives us at least a little better play this season, and there were guys like Spencer Brown in that 3rd-4th round range that have just as high a ceiling as Leatherwood. 

I believed JOK, Ojulari, and Moehrig were all first round prospects, and it is not at all a stretch to say that we relatively easy could have pulled off coming out of the draft with all of them. Certainly at least two. Instead we came away with Moehrig as a first round talent in my eyes but borderline, Leatherwood who I had as a late 2nd or early 3rd round talent at pick 17, and a couple of guys in the third that I liked what I saw but had them as mid 3rd round to mid 4th round talents in the 3rd who have contributed virtually zero to the team thus far. 

A defense of

DE - Yannick

3T - The group of Thomas, Philon, etc (I would have went into the draft with the idea of trying to salvage something from Ferrell inside with the ability to play DE in run situations only).

NT - Hankins 

DE - Crosby

SLB - Ojulari with Perryman, Kwit, or Wright if we still signed him manning the SLB spot when Ojulari is playing with his hand in the dirt.

MLB - Perryman/Morrow

WLB - JOK (with Littelton providing depth at WLB and MLB

CB - Hayward

CB - Mullen

Slot - Hobbs (I likely wouldn't have taken him because I knew virtually nothing about him, but I don't care enough about 5th-7th round prospects so lets just say the front office did everything the same from the 4th round on.)

FS - Moehrig 

SS - Abram (but also have guys like Gillespie and company to play SLB and allow Abram to play some WLB). 

And basically have JOK and Abram operating as the LBs in the nickel situation. That defense would be insanely fast, and a tough defense to try and exploit in the passing game because JOK, Ojulari, Abram are all legit chess pieces that can operate in obvious passing situations in coverage/rushing or stay on the field and shift to allow a defense better suited to stuff the run be on the field. I would absolutely love our short and long term outlook with that unit. And it was very possible. And all we would have had to sacrifice is Leatherwood, Koonce, and Deablo. I'll make that switch and trust a stop gap RT and mid round rookie to hold down the fort at RT.

Edited by Mr Raider
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i really wanted Ojulari. he was of my favorite overall prospects. i was very frustrated that we pigeoholed ourselves into going RT in round 1 because it skews the BPA approach too much. i was very pleased with moehrig i the 2nd. but when ojulari and JOK were both slipping, i thought we should have jumped again.

instead of JOK we got Deablo, who is kind of just a worse version of him... and Koonce, who has some interesting tape but clearly wasnt ready for NFL athletes. JOK is playing out of his mind right now and we are just hoping Deablo can kind of maybe enter the rotation of a banged up defense

Edited by Turnobili
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24 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

i really wanted Ojulari. he was of my favorite overall prospects. i was very frustrated that we pigeoholed ourselves into going RT in round 1 because it skews the BPA approach too much. i was very pleased with moehrig i the 2nd. but when ojulari and JOK were both slipping, i thought we should have jumped again.

instead of JOK we got Deablo, who is kind of just a worse version of him... and Koonce, who has some interesting tape but clearly wasnt ready for NFL athletes. JOK is playing out of his mind right now and we are just hoping Deablo can kind of maybe enter the rotation of a banged up defense

Seems we were pretty much in the same line of thinking in almost every aspect. 

That's a very good point about Deablo being a worse version of JOK. You could also say the same thing in a general sense for Koonce and Ojulari. Both undersized for the DE position that were projected to make their money with their athleticism and bend around the edge to get to the QB. Obviously Koonce played at a much smaller school against significantly inferior competition, but both guys were projected to kind of win in the same ways and impact the game with similar styles. 

And with that being the case I would absolutely give up assets to get the Ojulari and JOK version over saving the assets and getting Deablo and Koonce later. Don't get me wrong, I do think both Deablo and Koonce can be solid, contributing players in a year or so going forward. Both guys do have things to really like and they are worth developing. I am more hopeful of Deablo personally than Koonce just because I like the games I saw of him in college more, he at least played against a power 5 conference competition, today's NFL game has seen a lot of success with those S/LB hybrid type players, and Bradley and the L.O.B. tree of defenses has a pretty good track record of finding guys similar to Deablo and getting a ton out of them. Once he got hurt and missed almost all of camp I kind of chalked this season up to a straight development year, pretty much doing what they have with keeping him on the roster for depth as long as we are somewhat healthy, letting him get comfortable with the scheme and the NFL game overall, and put more and more on his plate as the season goes on. 

I kind of expected Koonce to have a redshirt year from the jump, but hoped he would flash enough in camp and preseason to force the staff into giving him at least a situational pass rusher role immediately. Obviously that was a long shot. But my hope for that largely came from the fact that I just don't think 3rd round picks should be invested in guys that need a redshirt year before they can hopefully even contribute at all. Koonce was the type of prospect that fit the mold of a guy I personally would love to draft and take a shot on in the 5th, 6th, 7th round and undrafted type guys. In the first three rounds I want guys that can start or at the very least fill a role of good depth at their position (or hopefully multiple spots if they aren't starting) for the first year. Even a guy like Ruggs in the first I was content even if I would have taken Lamb over him (Ruggs was my 2nd choice if it was a WR though) because even though I believed he would need some time to develop to be what we were drafting him to be, I still thought there was a significant role he was good enough to fill immediately and then as he developed he could take over a larger role. Koonce to this point is a disappointment. Sure with Yannick and Maxx there wasn't a starting role open to him, but Nassib and Ferrell certainly could yield some snaps if Koonce showed enough. Ojulari is similar in the sense of being a smaller, explosive, twitchy, bendy pass rusher, but he also was really refined, had experience with his hand in the dirt and standing up, and even played coverage some, and despite his size he was a factor in the run game. So while similar in a lot of ways on paper, Ojulari could have immediately come in and IMO started at SLB even in the most traditional sense, but he also is so talented that he would have taken the majority of Nassib and Ferrells reps, heck he may have forced Ferrell off the team altogether. Not to mention the benefit the team would have overall to have a full 60 minutes of Yannick, Crosby, Ojulari and Nassib being much fresher than most teams edge players. 

I'm not giving up on either, and I actually really look forward to see in Deablo can earn more and more playing time as the season goes along, and seeing his development from year one to year two. Koonce could surprise and take a big step too after a year of adjusting to the huge talented increase in terms of what he has experience facing. But I am more confident in Deablo currently. With that said, while more comfortable with him I can't say I am extremely confident he is going to be as good as we should expect him to be for a third round pick. 

So if I were the one making the decisions and I knew a LB/S hybrid type guy that could give our defense a ton of speed, coverage, versatility, etc and a edge rusher that is explosive, twitchy, can bend around the edge and also potentially provide the front 7 with more explosiveness and versatility were 2 areas we were making a priority to add to the defense in the first three rounds, when both Ojulari and JOK fell into the 2nd round it would have been my main priority to find a way to move up and grab at least one of them. Like I said, it was flat out inexcusable and negligence on the front offices part to go into the draft with 2 GLARING holes that every team could see at RT and FS. Even if you love prospects there and want to take them, that's fine. But at both spots we literally had nothing. Even if you sign a guy like Beachum, Wagner, Dotson, etc at RT on a one or two year deal (or the equivalent of the guard pool if you want to play Good at RT) you at least keep your options open and force teams to consider your selection of a tackle as one of a few likely picks. 

I was very very happy with Moehrig in the 2nd. But if you asked me would I rather have Leatherwood, Moehrig, Deablo, and Koonce or Ojulari, Moehrig, and JOK with a guy like Demar Dotson starting at RT for a season and a 4th or 5th round pick with a high ceiling behind him, it's absolutely zero contest for me. Give me the guys that are the best athletes, prospects, with the best traits giving them a higher ceiling and their experience and production against good competition giving them also a higher floor and the ability to provide the team with something immediately. 

To get the best version of those players with similar traits that would fill similar roles should always be the goal. Obviously if JOK and Ojulari go in the 1st there is only so much you can do. But I would have taken Ojulari (because I would have had a stop gap signed on the OL) and then once Moehrig fell to me in the 2nd I make that selection, and once that pick is done I am on the phone with every team picking after me and using my 2 significant assets that can get me back into the 2nd to take the clearly superior, best in the entire draft prospect at that LB/S spot. Getting the extra pick or 2 it would have taken to get back into the 2nd sounds great. But when you end up taking a guy that profiles to the same type of player but less of a prospect and they ultimately end up needing a red shirt year before they may be able to contribute anything it just proves those assets weren't valuable enough to justify not giving them up to go get a bigger immediat impact player that also has a super high ceiling as well. 

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1 hour ago, Turnobili said:

i really wanted Ojulari. he was of my favorite overall prospects. i was very frustrated that we pigeoholed ourselves into going RT in round 1 because it skews the BPA approach too much. i was very pleased with moehrig i the 2nd. but when ojulari and JOK were both slipping, i thought we should have jumped again.

instead of JOK we got Deablo, who is kind of just a worse version of him... and Koonce, who has some interesting tape but clearly wasnt ready for NFL athletes. JOK is playing out of his mind right now and we are just hoping Deablo can kind of maybe enter the rotation of a banged up defense

Azeez and Phillips were my guys, I saw a lot of Khalil Mack in Azeez at UGA. Dude has been tearing it up for the Giants. JOK has played well this year too. It's almost as if the guys who were dominant in college with great tape are the ones that go on to become good NFL players. 

Mayock said he learned his lesson drafting players then expecting them to change positions. So he drafted Leatherwood, who had never played RT, to be our starting RT and Deablo a SS to be a WLB. 

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5 hours ago, Turnobili said:

i really wanted Ojulari. he was of my favorite overall prospects. i was very frustrated that we pigeoholed ourselves into going RT in round 1 because it skews the BPA approach too much. i was very pleased with moehrig i the 2nd. but when ojulari and JOK were both slipping, i thought we should have jumped again.

instead of JOK we got Deablo, who is kind of just a worse version of him... and Koonce, who has some interesting tape but clearly wasnt ready for NFL athletes. JOK is playing out of his mind right now and we are just hoping Deablo can kind of maybe enter the rotation of a banged up defense

I would have been happy with JOK or trading up for sewell/slater.

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8 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

If they drafted with my mock our oline would be 

kolt-Simpson- Humphrey-whoever our rg is -brown

I loved Spencer Brown during the pre-draft process, from a physical stand point he's basically a more athletic Kolton Miller. Would've preferred to have signed a stop gap RT and taken Brown later in the draft but Grudock believed in Leatherwood. 

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8 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Fwiw I think James would play better as a guard. Imo he’s thinking too much. Being a center in practice is way easier than in an actual game. 

I personally don't think James is an NFL caliber OL. Dude was an average OT at UCLA.

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