Raiders Defense

[RaisinBran]

On 12/13/2017 at 3:31 AM, big_palooka said:

I'm saying he's not a priority re-sign and not worth a second contract. He won't be paid like a 4th CB in FA, so don't overvalue him. "Good enough" is not acceptable to me if I'm building a team. #commitmenttomediocrity 

If your critique as that he'll be overpaid then I can agree with that to an extent. He's been one of the more consistent players on our defense so it just wouldn't feel right to let him go unless the asking price was too high for us... which it might very well be as some have pointed out. You seemed to be referring to his talent as the issue when I first quoted you... as in overrated talent-wise. I think he's underrated and has only started to reach his peak in terms of utilization.

[Darbsk]

17 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Why? He'd be a lame duck coach going into 2018. So who is going to want to come coach with him? I can't think of a less inspiring thing to do. He's coach 187 games and never won a division title. #commitmenttomediocrity

I think I said this in another thread and basically, I think the co-ordinators have been the problem aswell as the scheme. We didn't have an issue with JDR last year when we were playing well, the team had a 'feel good factor' to it, the players were playing with a 'never say die attitude' now all of a sudden he's the problem? Not logical to me. I think he backs his players and they will and do appreciate that. If there is a sure fire top quality HC available then sure, I'd swap him out for Harbaugh for example but realistically that is very unlikely to be the case.

Now, I'm not saying he's the greatest HC in football as he's clearly not, but you're also not taking his record in context either - when did he ever have a genuine top tier QB in Jacksonville to lead that team? Whilst he was there he was playing against the Manning led Colts every year, do you think that had a major impact on the division winner? I understand your point here but feel like you're deliberately picking facts to suit your agenda. He did make the playoffs twice whilst battling against the Manning led Colts and without a genuine franchise QB, that is some achievement to me.

Before we do an Al Davis and tear the whole thing down, let him work with a decent OC (like he did last year) and upgrade to a decent DC and see what we can do. 

[Rolni]

20 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Another good post Rolni, I'm with you on the majority but would keep JDR and Pagano and add an OC. I'd let Pagano run his favoured 3-4.

I'd probably be more conservative with the defensive backfield and would retain Amerson as in a more aggressive Pagano scheme I think he could play well - though by his nature he'll always be a little hit and miss. SS I'd cut if he didn't take a pay cut but I think he can do a job short term. Conley showed signs of huge talent but I wouldn't want to go into 2018 with a rookie at one CB spot and a virtual rookie in Conley at the other with maybe a new FA at nickel. I'd like to have the options of Conley, Amerson and Carrie and then supplement that with a rookie or a vet with McDonald and Hamilton as #5 or #6.

The safeties, I think I'd cut Nelson and look at Joseph and Luani at FS as Joseph and Nelson have been swapping somewhat and I'd want Obi to step up and cover TEs from the SS spot more often if possible. This leaves us with McGill and a rookie or a FA to compete.

We'd still be able to draft BPA at most spots as none of our guys are sure fire players outside of Mack and Irvin. Even then, we could draft an outside rusher if we think he's the real deal and he can spell Mack and Irvin.

 

Thanks man!

I could live with the JDR&Pagano tandem, especially Pagano's small twists seems to work. If he gets his hands on the full playbook, scheme I think this unit can get a lot better.

If Jack can get a quality OC, we might be good, but I'm just simply fed up with JDR right now. His decision to let Musgrave walk and promote Downing, his decision to let Norton keep his job...this is just too much for me. I mean how can we trust him to get a trully good OC?

With that said a guy like Mike McCoy, John DeFilippo would make me somewhat exited even with JDR returning...

 

I get what you say about Amerson, but I'm not sure whether we will see him under Pagano at all this year. If we can't than based on his last 2 years that guaranteed 6M would be a bit too much for my taste. With that said If we keep Pagano and then keep Amerson I would be ok with that. Not my money and I start to trust Pagano, he seems to be brighter then Norton and JDR...

It would be ideal to have Carrie, Amerson, Conley a high rookie, but with the Mack extension, with Autry, Ellis, Lee and Bowman also being UFA's I just not sure we can dedicate that much money to that position with guys who are not sure solutions...

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

He wasn't penny pinching when he gave Reggie + JDR the extensions. And from the climb and success they had in 2016 it was warranted. Now with a lot of factors contributing to a down year people wanna second guess those moves. Well, we risk becoming what everyone hates in sports. A knee jerk team that makes moves when things aren't working as planned in the short term.

Well... Davis did the opposite. Knee jerk reaction and extend a bad coach after 1 good season. I was critical of that move, for the reason I never believed in JDR from the start. Go take a look at his time with Jacksonville. 12-4 in his 3rd season, dropped to 8-8 the next year. He had exactly 3 winning seasons in Jacksonville. 3 in 9 years. 

And a common theme, they had a talented roster that people expected more out of but never got over the hump.

[NightTrainLane]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Well... Davis did the opposite. Knee jerk reaction and extend a bad coach after 1 good season. I was critical of that move, for the reason I never believed in JDR from the start. Go take a look at his time with Jacksonville. 12-4 in his 3rd season, dropped to 8-8 the next year. He had exactly 3 winning seasons in Jacksonville. 3 in 9 years. 

And a common theme, they had a talented roster that people expected more out of but never got over the hump.

I wouldn't call it knee jerk to extend a coach and gm who took the team from 3-13 to 7-9 to 12-4. Davis looked at the young building team and the trajectory and decided to keep the people around in leadership that had gotten them to this point.

Just because something happened once doesn't mean it will happen again. Every coach, team, and yearly circumstance is different but if you want to play the comparative game we can. If Belichick, Coughlin or Carroll hadn't been given second chances then their teams wouldn't have super bowl rings. And yes, there are examples that go the other way. Just proves that this is a flawed way to look at it. IMO, Marl looked at what we were building and wanted to keep it going and I bet JDR smartly leveraged that feeling to get a new deal. Just because we have had a down year and you don't like JDR doesn't mean this will be a trend or that the things that plagued us this year will continue next year.

[big_palooka]

14 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

It has nothing to do with "networks". JDR wasn't in a network that Mark traveled in. This assumption that Mark chose JDR and Reggie didn't have input is more that ridiculous when you look at how many times Mark has said that he will leave the football decisions to football people. Now if you want to say that Mark consulted people that he trusted who are football people and then took all the info and maybe overruled Reggie after they met to discuss it, that is more plausible.

But like I was saying before, throw out some realistic names and see what people can say about them. I'm sure mediocre will seem like a good thing compared.

JDR was handpicked by Davis: http://www.espn.com/blog/oakland-raiders/post/_/id/8929/mark-davis-takes-control-of-raiders-with-jack-del-rio-hire

JDR wanted the job. That's what I am referring to. Who else "wanted the job". Davis hand picked him. Reggie wanted to stay with Sparano (would have hated that choice as well).

For me, I would like to see an offensive minded HC who can bring out the best in Carr. Matt Nagy out of the Andy Reid tree perhaps to go the unproven route. Jay Gruden is another name I'd look at if he's let go in Wash. His scheme's are crafty on offense. He's respected and the kind of 'name' Davis could land.

[NightTrainLane]

39 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

JDR was handpicked by Davis: http://www.espn.com/blog/oakland-raiders/post/_/id/8929/mark-davis-takes-control-of-raiders-with-jack-del-rio-hire

JDR wanted the job. That's what I am referring to. Who else "wanted the job". Davis hand picked him. Reggie wanted to stay with Sparano (would have hated that choice as well).

For me, I would like to see an offensive minded HC who can bring out the best in Carr. Matt Nagy out of the Andy Reid tree perhaps to go the unproven route. Jay Gruden is another name I'd look at if he's let go in Wash. His scheme's are crafty on offense. He's respected and the kind of 'name' Davis could land.

This comment does nothing to address or refute anything I said. The article points to rumors passed from one person to another and rumblings. Not statements. It also doesn't mean that Reggie didn't have input in the hire like I said was more plausible. It also stands to reason that Mark did consult other in coming to a decision on a football matter like he did when hiring Reggie, especially if he was as excited as you and that article make him out to be about it.

How would he have convinced himself so soundly that Jack was his guy without input from those he trusted in football circles? It's not plausible.

Don't you think it's more pausilbe that Mark got input from guys like Wolf and Madden and then took that info into his discussions with Reggie. They then came away with JDR being the coach of the team. It's not as good a story when it's presented this way so it's understandable why it wasn't presented that way.

And I noticed you skipped my last comment.

Gruden is a good offensive mind but if we had the choice I'd take Nagy and Pagano over him. Still not sure, even with a poor finish, that the Washington football team gets rid of Gruden anyhow.

[big_palooka]

12 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I think I said this in another thread and basically, I think the co-ordinators have been the problem aswell as the scheme. We didn't have an issue with JDR last year when we were playing well, the team had a 'feel good factor' to it, the players were playing with a 'never say die attitude' now all of a sudden he's the problem? Not logical to me. I think he backs his players and they will and do appreciate that. If there is a sure fire top quality HC available then sure, I'd swap him out for Harbaugh for example but realistically that is very unlikely to be the case.

Now, I'm not saying he's the greatest HC in football as he's clearly not, but you're also not taking his record in context either - when did he ever have a genuine top tier QB in Jacksonville to lead that team? Whilst he was there he was playing against the Manning led Colts every year, do you think that had a major impact on the division winner? I understand your point here but feel like you're deliberately picking facts to suit your agenda. He did make the playoffs twice whilst battling against the Manning led Colts and without a genuine franchise QB, that is some achievement to me.

Before we do an Al Davis and tear the whole thing down, let him work with a decent OC (like he did last year) and upgrade to a decent DC and see what we can do. 

Garrard and Leftwhich were a serviceable pair at QB. They had a elite run game. And a defense full of talents at every level. 

Fact is, he let go of a decent OC. Hired an OC that wasn't ready. Held onto a poor DC for too long. Things an HC should recognize. But my main issue is his overall is the team has his stamp on it. Basic, bland, vanilla, whatever you want to call it. .500 football. And his only strength is raw raw and that's failing him now too.

[NightTrainLane]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Garrard and Leftwhich were a serviceable pair at QB. They had a elite run game. And a defense full of talents at every level. 

Fact is, he let go of a decent OC. Hired an OC that wasn't ready. Held onto a poor DC for too long. Things an HC should recognize. But my main issue is his overall is the team has his stamp on it. Basic, bland, vanilla, whatever you want to call it. .500 football. And his only strength is raw raw and that's failing him now too.

That wasn't his stamp last year but whatever you say dude. We know where you stand.

We still have 3 games and then we'll see how Mark and Reggie evaluate the year and where that puts the coach they hired, extended and who lead us to our best season since 2000.

[SilverNBlackFan]

30 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

That wasn't his stamp last year but whatever you say dude. We know where you stand.

What was his stamp last year? Rely on my third year QB to bail me out every close game? Rely on Khalil Mack's greatness to take over games and get fluky lucky turnovers? 

Those are the only reasons we won games last year. There was never a game in 2016 where I could say hey we won because of our coaching and schemematical advantage. No, we won because we had MVP caliber play from two young players and got lucky with TOs and played a third place schedule. We very much should've been a 8-8 ball club last year but the ball bounced our way a couple more times.

JDR is not a coach you hire if you wish to have sustained success. In his 11 years of coaching, he has only had back to back winning seasons once. (And he was 9-7 one of those years). JDR is as mediocre and uninspiring a coach as there is. For the people who want to keep him, who is going to want to come coach under him next year? John Pagano? Dirk Koetter? Eww. Like BP said, commitment to mediocrity at its finest. And as a Northern California fan, it's sad that these last seasons in Oakland will be remembered as such.

Edited December 16, 2017 by SilverNBlackFan

[NightTrainLane]

2 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

What was his stamp last year? Rely on my third year QB to bail me out every close game? Rely on Khalil Mack's greatness to take over games and get fluky lucky turnovers? 

Those are the only reasons we won games last year. There was never a game in 2016 where I could say hey we won because of our coaching and schemematical advantage. No, we won because we had MVP caliber play from two young players and got lucky with TOs and played a third place schedule. We very much should've been a 8-8 ball club last year but the ball bounced our way a couple more times.

JDR is not a coach you hire if you wish to have sustained success. In his 11 years of coaching, he has only had back to back winning seasons once. (And he was 9-7 one of those years). JDR is as mediocre and uninspiring a coach as there is. For the people who want to keep him, who is going to want to come coach under him next year? John Pagano? Dirk Koetter? Eww. Like BP said, commitment to mediocrity at its finest. And as a Northern California fan, it's sad that these last seasons in Oakland will be remembered as such.

I'm not gonna go back game for game with you but I don't find this to be a true representation of every win last year especially when it's not gonna change either of our opinions in the end.

As I said above, we still have 3 games and then we'll see how Mark and Reggie evaluate the year and where that puts the coach they hired, extended and who lead us to our best season since 2000. Hopefully, whatever they choose get us back in the hunt in a major way.

 

[Dessie]

11 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Fact is, he let go of a decent OC. Hired an OC that wasn't ready. Held onto a poor DC for too long. Things an HC should recognize. But my main issue is his overall is the team has his stamp on it. Basic, bland, vanilla, whatever you want to call it. .500 football. And his only strength is raw raw and that's failing him now too.

You called Musgrave a working stiff, too conservative and you liked the fact we let him go when it was announced that Downing was to replace him, now you say we let go of a decent OC. 

Wheres that Captain Hindsight gif?

[big_palooka]

4 hours ago, Dessie said:

You called Musgrave a working stiff, too conservative and you liked the fact we let him go when it was announced that Downing was to replace him, now you say we let go of a decent OC. 

Wheres that Captain Hindsight gif?

Musgrave was a decent OC. That is to say, he wasn't dynamic or inventive. He was a working stiff who JDR was quick to heap blame on. I was in favor of the move to let him walk assuming the HC knew what he had in Downing. And yes hindsight is 20/20. Musgrave was a stiff, but you knew what you were getting. Downing has proven he wasn't ready.

[big_palooka]

13 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

That wasn't his stamp last year but whatever you say dude. We know where you stand.

We still have 3 games and then we'll see how Mark and Reggie evaluate the year and where that puts the coach they hired, extended and who lead us to our best season since 2000.

You're kidding right? Just because they won last year, doesn't mean his stamp wasn't there. The team was basic and vanilla on both sides of the ball. The difference was schedule and Carr for whatever reason playing at an All Pro level.

So if the Raiders go 0-3 and look lifeless, is that cause enough for you to want to move on from JDR?

[Rich7sena]

5 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

You're kidding right? Just because they won last year, doesn't mean his stamp wasn't there. The team was basic and vanilla on both sides of the ball. The difference was schedule and Carr for whatever reason playing at an All Pro level.

So if the Raiders go 0-3 and look lifeless, is that cause enough for you to want to move on from JDR?

This is the very definition of confirmation bias. If the team wins, it's in spite of JDR. If the team loses, he's the cause.