Raiders Defense

[NightTrainLane]

38 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Why are you so literal all they time? I'm not suggesting only retaining those 3-4 players. I'm saying that is the number of players you can count on the defensive roster. The rest can be beaten out. 

The CBs are so so bad. Carrie is a FA and not worth resigning. McDonald can be cut eventually, but he's under contract so he'll stick around for now obviously. Neither of those guys should be on this roster if your serious about the secondary.  

 

But like I said that is unrealistic because you can only add capable talent in so many ways.McDonald isn't worst that other 5th corners in the league and he has his moments for us. He shouldn't be on the field taking defensive snaps as the bottom of the depth chart but you still talk like he was should be shutting guys down. Not realistic.

Carrie was slated to be our 4th corner this year and in the almost the same boat. If we can retain him for a reasonable price (1-2.5mil a yr) I think his value is worth that.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, NightTrainLane said:

 

But like I said that is unrealistic because you can only add capable talent in so many ways.McDonald isn't worst that other 5th corners in the league and he has his moments for us. He shouldn't be on the field taking defensive snaps as the bottom of the depth chart but you still talk like he was should be shutting guys down. Not realistic.

Carrie was slated to be our 4th corner this year and in the almost the same boat. If we can retain him for a reasonable price (1-2.5mil a yr) I think his value is worth that.

If the goal is to remain below average, by retaining or re-signing below average players, then the results will continue to be the same. 

[riceman80]

33 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

If the goal is to remain below average, by retaining or re-signing below average players, then the results will continue to be the same. 

I think the goal should be retaining depth and players familiar with scheme, then trying to improve on them. Unless the player is atrocious like Nelson or SS. But if we can re-sign our current guys and still seek upgrades that's the best way to get better imo.

If we can get MEJ or Autry back, it doesnt change the fact that we still need an impact lineman to pair with Mack. We need better play from our starters but moving experienced yet overmatched starters into sub package and rotational roles helps our depth.

We need bigtime improvements at every level but our depth is also atrocious and, for example, im not into the idea of trashing everyone but Bowman at LB and getting 4 to 5 new players in. My hope is we could maintain continuity and improve on the spots.

I agree that keeping our current starters as starters into next year would be suicide but keeping them for depth, competition, and familiarity would be my ultimate goal.

EDIT - Provided they're relatively inexpensive in regards to their talent. Like NTL said, if we could re-sign a guy like Carrie for cheap, id feel WAY better about that then having a day 3 pick or UDFAs competing for our 3rd or 4th CB spot.

Edited December 12, 2017 by riceman80

[riceman80]

And defense needs to be the offseason focus IMO. A competent scheme with a competent playcaller could do wonders for offense. RB would be a nice luxury but if Lynch comes back i would want great value if we took one in the first 2 days. OT is the only high offensive need IMO.

We need serious help at DE, DT, OLB, CB, and S

[NightTrainLane]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

If the goal is to remain below average, by retaining or re-signing below average players, then the results will continue to be the same. 

Good luck with your cap trying to sign top talent at your depth slots. Rosters just don't work that way. There is a reason those guys are 4th and 5th string. They are young developing guys taken late in the draft. Every team fills their bottom tiers with these type of guys unless they have incredible cap space like the Jags did last year. It's just unfortunate when they have to be relied on to play a big role

[big_palooka]

18 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Good luck with your cap trying to sign top talent at your depth slots. Rosters just don't work that way. There is a reason those guys are 4th and 5th string. They are young developing guys taken late in the draft. Every team fills their bottom tiers with these type of guys unless they have incredible cap space like the Jags did last year. It's just unfortunate when they have to be relied on to play a big role

Again.. putting words in my mouth. Where did I say sign "top talent" at your depth slots? Yes, fill the bottom end of your roster with potential players.

I'm talking specifically about Carrie. You don't need to re-sign Carrie, you can draft a player to take his spot who may have more upside. Carrie is the poster child for what has plagued Raidernation for a generation. A below average player, propped up by fans because he's less awful than what has been or is currently there. An overvalued player who's not worth another contract. 

[NightTrainLane]

21 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Again.. putting words in my mouth. Where did I say sign "top talent" at your depth slots? Yes, fill the bottom end of your roster with potential players.

I'm talking specifically about Carrie. You don't need to re-sign Carrie, you can draft a player to take his spot who may have more upside. Carrie is the poster child for what has plagued Raidernation for a generation. A below average player, propped up by fans because he's less awful than what has been or is currently there. An overvalued player who's not worth another contract. 

I think it's very subjective to call Carrie below avg for his draft position and depth status and while I agree that he shouldn't get a 4-5 mil deal a yr, he is worth another contract IMO. But I won't put up a fuss if the team wants to draft another corner in the mid to late rounds to replace him. But we will see a drop in play most likely just due to experience and familiarity in the team and system.

[big_palooka]

1 minute ago, NightTrainLane said:

I think it's very subjective to call Carrie below avg for his draft position and depth status and while I agree that he shouldn't get a 4-5 mil deal a yr, he is worth another contract IMO. But I won't put up a fuss if the team wants to draft another corner in the mid to late rounds to replace him. But we will see a drop in play most likely just due to experience and familiarity in the team and system.

With any luck this "system" will be thrown out along with the coach who brought it here. 

[NightTrainLane]

Just now, big_palooka said:

With any luck this "system" will be thrown out along with the coach who brought it here. 

Doubt it.

[RaisinBran]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Again.. putting words in my mouth. Where did I say sign "top talent" at your depth slots? Yes, fill the bottom end of your roster with potential players.

I'm talking specifically about Carrie. You don't need to re-sign Carrie, you can draft a player to take his spot who may have more upside. Carrie is the poster child for what has plagued Raidernation for a generation. A below average player, propped up by fans because he's less awful than what has been or is currently there. An overvalued player who's not worth another contract. 

Really? TJ Carrie is the poster child for our lack of progression as a franchise? He's a late round draft pick and a a good backup CB. We could also end up with someone who is terrible if we try to swap him out. If you don't experience success right away you don't just throw everything out. You keep what's good and continue with that. Carrie is good enough to be a 4th CB on almost any NFL team. For a 7th rounder what more could you want?

Our problem in the secondary is drafting injury plagued corners in the first round that can't contribute until their 2nd or 3rd year.... How can we improve our defense when our young DB's that we draft are always injured and never become the players we draft them to be? That and not addressing our LB's!

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, RaisinBran said:

Really? TJ Carrie is the poster child for our lack of progression as a franchise? He's a late round draft pick and a a good backup CB. We could also end up with someone who is terrible if we try to swap him out. If you don't experience success right away you don't just throw everything out. You keep what's good and continue with that. Carrie is good enough to be a 4th CB on almost any NFL team. For a 7th rounder what more could you want?

Our problem in the secondary is drafting injury plagued corners in the first round that can't contribute until their 2nd or 3rd year.... How can we improve our defense when our young DB's that we draft are always injured and never become the players we draft them to be? That and not addressing our LB's!

I could be mistaken but I thought Carrie was suppose to be one of the better slot corners but not good on the outside.  Because of injuries and other players level of play dropping he was forced to the outside were he has shown he does not belong as a starter.  I have no problem re-signing him to play that position and have others on the outside with some depth so that if someone gets hurt he is not forced to play outside.  I also do not think any of our DBs were considered injury risks before we drafted them.  We have just been unlucky this year.  I do not see a problem with having Obi, Joseph, Amerson-FA, Conley, and Carrie (Slot) as our starting DBs next year.  We will experience some growing pains but should be a big improvement over this year.  Right now we have Nelson, Joseph, Carrie, Smith, and McDonald.

[big_palooka]

4 hours ago, RaisinBran said:

Really? TJ Carrie is the poster child for our lack of progression as a franchise? He's a late round draft pick and a a good backup CB. We could also end up with someone who is terrible if we try to swap him out. If you don't experience success right away you don't just throw everything out. You keep what's good and continue with that. Carrie is good enough to be a 4th CB on almost any NFL team. For a 7th rounder what more could you want?

I'm saying he's not a priority re-sign and not worth a second contract. He won't be paid like a 4th CB in FA, so don't overvalue him. "Good enough" is not acceptable to me if I'm building a team. #commitmenttomediocrity 

[Rich7sena]

17 hours ago, RaisinBran said:

Really? TJ Carrie is the poster child for our lack of progression as a franchise? He's a late round draft pick and a a good backup CB. We could also end up with someone who is terrible if we try to swap him out. If you don't experience success right away you don't just throw everything out. You keep what's good and continue with that. Carrie is good enough to be a 4th CB on almost any NFL team. For a 7th rounder what more could you want?

Our problem in the secondary is drafting injury plagued corners in the first round that can't contribute until their 2nd or 3rd year.... How can we improve our defense when our young DB's that we draft are always injured and never become the players we draft them to be? That and not addressing our LB's!

I think you’re underselling Carrie; particularly after the season he’s having this year. Carrie has not come off the field starting both on the outside in base and in the slot in nickel — which is more than can be said of a number of top corners in the NFL — and done a fine job. Calling him good enough to be a 4th CB is underselling what he’s done this season. He’s no less than the 3rd best corner on the vast majority of NFL teams based on what he’s done this season. He’s a priority re-sign in my eyes at no more than $6.5 a year.

That said, NFL teams need to have at least 3 starting caliber corners because of how often teams are in sub packages. Assuming Conley pans out, the team still needs to find another corner to start either in the slot or outside. I’d like the team to either keep on of the veterans on a restructured deal on board or sign a bargain veteran to supplement a top 3 round pick at the position in April.

[drfrey13]

7 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I think you’re underselling Carrie; particularly after the season he’s having this year. Carrie has not come off the field starting both on the outside in base and in the slot in nickel — which is more than can be said of a number of top corners in the NFL — and done a fine job. Calling him good enough to be a 4th CB is underselling what he’s done this season. He’s no less than the 3rd best corner on the vast majority of NFL teams based on what he’s done this season. He’s a priority re-sign in my eyes at no more than $6.5 a year.

That said, NFL teams need to have at least 3 starting caliber corners because of how often teams are in sub packages. Assuming Conley pans out, the team still needs to find another corner to start either in the slot or outside. I’d like the team to either keep on of the veterans on a restructured deal on board or sign a bargain veteran to supplement a top 3 round pick at the position in April.

The slot is where I think he belongs.  From everything I have read he is suppose to be one of the better slot corners and a decent player outside and at safety.  Teams love that versatility and a good slot CB is extremely important.  I would resign him since the reports out of camp this past year were that he is still continuing to improve.  My understanding of the CB position is limited so I would like to know others opinions of his ability in the slot.  I have seen him on the outside this year and think if that is his only position we should upgrade him but like I said before he is suppose to be really good inside.

[Humble_Beast]

14 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I'm saying he's not a priority re-sign and not worth a second contract. He won't be paid like a 4th CB in FA, so don't overvalue him. "Good enough" is not acceptable to me if I'm building a team. #commitmenttomediocrity 

I would bring back Ellie Carrie and Autry for depth 

but I’m not spending more that 1.5 m on each. More like 1m with each player , if they want more they could all walk